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Oops June 28, 2011

Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Media.
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One Rabayl Manzoor has linked to this blog in the midst of her argument for “gay rights in Pakistan“, citing it as an example of:

…practicing [sic] Muslims who have managed to reconcile their sexual orientation and faith and find no reason to focus on conflict within the two.

Well, there is some truth in that, in that the matter is very clear from an Islamic perspective: acting on homosexual desires is forbidden by our Creator, and so whether we talk about “same-sex attraction” (as we do) or “orientation”, the duty of every Muslim towards it is the same.

When it comes to “conflict” between worship and desires, between dunya and Akhirah, there really is no contest.

Another oopsie: the pro-homosexuality “scholar” (or, it seems, Manzoor herself) cited the Qur’an 49:3 when she presumably meant 49:13. As the refuted argument goes, Allah has created diversity of all types, so all diversity should be accepted. Note that the Qur’an calls our attention to diversity of the following kinds and made them signs of His power and beauty: two genders, many nations and tribes, many languages and colours, and even the fact that not everyone will follow the truth of Islam.

Did you spot sexual orientation anywhere? And if we take this argument too seriously, couldn’t any deviant tendency be gathered under the umbrella of diversity?

But then again, there is a secret to Manzoor quoting 49:3. It reads:

Indeed, those who lower their voices before the Messenger of Allah – they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for righteousness. For them is forgiveness and great reward.

If we study the meanings of this surah, we understand that these are the people who show utmost respect for the Messenger of Allah (peace be on him), submitting to the commands of God as revealed in the Qur’an and Sunnah, not pushing their own opinions and desires.

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Comments»

1. spinoza - August 15, 2011

I have written much on the topic of homosexuality in Islam but this is the first time I have come across an attempt to reconcile the faith with being gay. Perhaps you can explain why a loving God should make it clear to so many of his creation that he despises them?

Rasheed Eldin - August 17, 2011

The pleasure and displeasure of Allah towards certain of His creatures is related to their obedience or disregard for His guidance and commandments, not according to how they were created.

As you say you have written a lot, I would hope that you have researched a lot. In that case, the naivety of your statement/question/objection is surprising – I mean no offence in saying so.

If you wish to engage in constructive dialogue with us, please read quite thoroughly and extensively and try to understand our message before commenting on it.

spinoza - September 2, 2011

I think what you are saying here is that Allah despises the act of gay sex but He does not despise those who are gay and resist/deny their natural impulses. Am I right?
This is the argument put forward by all the believers in the Abrahamic religions who attempt to reconcile a supposedly merciful, loving God consigning those who wish to have a loving relationship with a member of the same sex to everlasting fiery torment.
So God creates some of us gay as a test then? It does seem a very strange kind of test – “I’ll design your libido so that you will have an overwhelming desire to have sex with other men but if you act upon those overwhelming desires I’ll burn the flesh off your back for eternity…”
And how do you explain the prophet telling us to turn out of our houses those who “act” in a gay way. This doesn’t seem to be the actions of a perfect human being whom we must all emulate

2. Rasheed Eldin - September 29, 2011

I’m afraid you are demonstrating a lack of research, both of Islam itself, and of this site, despite my request. For one thing, we don’t go along with labelling people as “gay” because of some feelings they have.

Moreover, you completely misunderstand Islamic teachings if you think that punishment for sins (short of disbelief) is “everlasting”.

As for the question (if that’s what it was), please provide evidence and we can discuss it.

sem rossi - August 24, 2012

I think is you trying to avoid very clear and strong argument calling your opponent ignorant. That is very arrogant and biased.
You should learn how to respect the intelligence of people and their argument, trying to consider if they may be right, before simply disqualifying them and discarding them because they undermine your beliefs.

Rasheed Eldin - February 28, 2014

I do. Do you?

3. Imagine thinking for yourself - October 3, 2011

Rasheed gives what is a typical response among religious apologists: he says ‘Spinoza, you simply don’t understand.’ This allows a neat avoidance of having to discuss Spinoza’s very valid point. Rasheed gives a version of the argument from authority, and then simply closes down.

I have read quite a few of the postings here. The majority of them are hate-filled invalidations of those who don’t conform to what the posters consider absolutely true, no matter what. This is not surprising, since open-mindedness and questioning of the Koran are violently discouraged in Islam. It is a form of mind control, a mental slavery (much worse in some ways than traditional slavery).

Don’t be off-put, Spinoza: there are no circumstances where Rasheed would agree with you, but that is to his discredit, not yours.

Rasheed Eldin - February 28, 2014

What was the valid point? And can you find any sort of reply to it in my comment? And why do you see that as insufficient?

4. JMW - December 1, 2011

Allah created two genders? Think again. People are born intersex, so that makes at least three genders, and that raises the question: who do these people get to love? Clearly the idea of one-man-one-woman does not work for these people, because they are neither fully man nor fully woman. Sure, the doctor can do a little surgery at birth (normally it’s easier to snip off the male genitalia), but that doesn’t change who they were born as.

Rasheed Eldin - December 2, 2011

There is what the Qur’an says (in numerous verses, e.g. 75:39, 92:3) and then there is what you say. For knowledge about Allah and His creation, any right-thinking Muslim will take the explicit word of revelation.

I don’t deny the existence of such exceptions, but even in your own explanation, you have used the term “intersex”, i.e. between two sexes. So rather than three genders, that sounds closer to another state between two genders. If people choose to define it otherwise, that will not affect the reality of creation.

Finally, such cases are indeed worthy of attention and consideration by scholars, whereas people simply feeling attraction to the same sex (while having no confusion, let alone physical aberration) regarding their gender identity, should think twice carefully making analogies with such anomalies.

5. inada01 - December 26, 2011

Question: What is it that your looking for? In Islam? It’s clearly forbidden in Islam to do gay sex and it’s in some way people who have gay attraction are somewhat ‘disgusting’..
Okay, so let’s make it clear what you’re really saying.that having gay attraction is okay but doing it is not? Meaning the right way to do for those ‘gay’ people are for abstaining sex..? And other things I presumed: Love, etc..

Is that true? If that’s true, then, the only way for some gay man/woman to be accepted by God is to abstain them self from pleasures. These sexual pleasures.. That’s in a way transcend to any other pleasures..? Am I understanding correctly..?

Then, if I may continue, do you know that Muhammad married more than 4 woman, and one of them was a 9 year old girl. And it is okay back at the time to have sex with your right hand woman ? Or if I remember correctly, it’s okay to have sex with your slaves..? And if my history lesson is correct, it’s okay to have contractual marriages? Meaning I can marry a prostitute for just one day, have sex with her, and be done with it?

So.. it’s okay for these men to have pleasures, sexual pleasures, many of them, while “gay” men (I put the quote here because you don’t like to label them, I just simply meant it for people who have same-sex attractions)..
While gay men are not allowed to have such pleasures..?

Am I understanding correctly..

And now to put the end to this question : What kind of cult is this..?

Rasheed Eldin - December 26, 2011

Inada, this “cult” of a billion people is also responsible for some of the greatest achievements of civilisation, so please show a little respect while trying to learn, if that is indeed your aim.

As I think you’ve noticed, we don’t label people “gay” in such a way that being as such is inevitable and unchangeable, because change is possible in principle, and in practice varies from person to person.

The rule is that men cannot have sex with other men, nor women with women. There is no rule telling “gay men” what to do or not to do. Someone could have SSA without that negating opposite-sex attraction (e.g. what they call “bi”). Someone who was called “gay” in the past might get married today, so marriage is not ruled out: only unlawful relations.

Regarding your other points, you are partly mistaken, especially that there is no “temporary marriage” in mainstream Islam. But all that you are proving is that there are many routes of “halal”, so there is no excuse for “haram”.

sem rossi - August 24, 2012

You are not replying the questions about having sex with a 9 years old. You ask respect for free. It doesn’t work like that. I’m entitled to not respect a belief that want me dead. Period.

[Rasheed replies: what was the relevance of that? Many other people have answered misconceptions surrounding that. Anyway, neither I nor my "belief" wants you dead. A decent conversation would be nice, though.]

6. inada01 - December 27, 2011

So you’re defending the heterosexual men and their rights and their many halal routes to have sex?
Yes, having a gay sex is Haram, and having a heterosexual sex is Hallal in so many ways.. So what does this tells you?

And also, isn’t it odd that the punishment for these sins are hell? I can understand if someone kill someone, they should be punished.
But the punishment for simply doing this “disgusting thing called gay sex” (that is considered disgusting by heterosexuals, not by homosexuals) are hell?

Islam does leave great achievements in civilisation, doesn’t it? But so does the greek, the chinese, the rome, the christian, but you don’t call them “righteous”..

Rasheed Eldin - February 28, 2014

I don’t dismiss them as “cults” either.

It is not for me to decide what is fair and right as punishment for any sin, but that is God’s prerogative. Hellfire is the punishment for many sins, and these might be “small” in your eyes. But also God may choose to forgive whatever He wills. He will judge with perfect justice and over-riding mercy that takes into account the circumstances a person lived with.

7. inada01 - December 27, 2011

btw, I’m not gonna follow any more comments/posts on this blog as this is clearly messed me up. It’s really hard for me to watch gay men justifying / rationalizing themselves just for the sake of being loved by god.. i mean, do they even think what kind of god would it be who limit their rights, and persecute them if they fail, and at the same time gives more rights to other kind of people (in this case heterosexual men)? Do they even think that this god might not be right?

It’s like watching an abused wife accepting herself to be abused by her husband and watching her justification/rationalization of why she deserved it…
saddening.. really2 saddening..

8. julien malod giulio974 - February 2, 2012

i want to react to this article.
I am Julien ( Giulio974 ) French , gay and good looking.
At present, i live in ile de la Réunion, but before, I met a Pakistanese man in Karachi (what a man) and the fact that we have to hide our relationship towards his family made me sick .
So the only way to live our love as gays, is to run away and live in French island like Réunion island or in California.
So sad, but true.

Rasheed Eldin - February 3, 2012

And what will you do for your next lives? I don’t know if this message is genuine (as I don’t see what thinking of yourself as “good looking” has to do with anything) but what’s sad is if someone would know the truth of Islam but give precedence to his desires over the truth. May God guide both of you.

9. anonymous - March 22, 2012

I am really amazed at the differences of opinions here!
I am curious about the particular person Rashid Eldin. I believe you are the Ayub of the story and you have abstained from same sex relationship. I am really amazed how you have isolated yourself and I dont know how do you it! have you at-last mastered your SSA. Are you not attracted to men anymore? Have you gotten married? I don’t know but please enlighten me with the knowledge how did you so it? i have tried repeatedly but ended up feeling worse and anxious. i have even found a verse in the Quran that talks about men who does not desire women. After I did I have stopped myself from asking Allah(swt) ti change me because the verse is pretty clear. But reading your posts and your replies, I am just amazed( shoked, actually). so yes please be kind enough to answer my question.

Rasheed Eldin - March 22, 2012

Salam – I don’t make a habit of talking about myself, but there is an online group (www.straightstruggle.com) where people talk about their personal experiences and support one another.

10. Omz - April 3, 2012

I love how we sit here and keep trying to shove a square peg into a circular hole. In the end, its really about what makes us feel better about ourselves, isn’t it? The last two comments above mine illustrate that perfectly. For some of us, not acknowledging our sexuality leads to a feeling of emptiness or frustration. For others, knowing in their mind that they have what they may consider a guaranteed acceptance into heaven for denying their desires (homosexuality) and following the word of god is strong enough to make them comfortable with not having such contact. It really breaks down to what is ego syntonic and what is ego dystonic.

So really, everyone is right and no one is right. Just be HAPPY! Do what makes you happy and stop worrying about what others think. If you believe god will forgive you for what your doing, then do it. You will never find the answer in scripture as it is written for the masses and not for anomalies. If you strongly feel that god will not understand why you chose to do what you did and will hold strongly to the point of what was written, then so be it. But do not waste your time suffering on earth only to suffer in heaven, because I’m pretty sure if he’s not going to be happy with you having sex with men on earth, he definitely will not allow for it in heaven – and I’m not super rehearsed on scripture, but I don’t know if these “feelings” people experience will be cured in heaven once they pass.

I’ve lived in both westernized societies and muslims (Primarily GCC arab) societies. Men have sex with men in both environments. The exception is that for one group (in the US, lets say) its ego syntonic and makes them feel happy that they engaged in such activities and in the other group (Saudi/Bahrain) its seen as ego dystonic and hopefully a phase that will pass once the men are able to marry and have sex with their wives. Both parties can end up content, so there’s really no point in pushing one view point over the other.

Blah, thats it for now.

Rasheed Eldin - April 3, 2012

Dear Omz,

The obvious problem with your advice is that many things that make people feel happy now will only lead to unhappiness later on (if we are to consider happiness as the goal, rather than worship).

You are assuming that the matter of prohibition is not clear. Never mind that I disagree, what if you’re wrong, full stop? I don’t see why people who know scripture should be impressed by relativist ‘arguments’.

The idea of “suffering in heaven” is a contradiction in terms, whether we assume that what a person gave up will be given to them there, or whether the desire will pass. To reduce God’s promise of perfect reward to our limited understanding is a big error, on which – I now see – greater errors can be built.

11. Omz - April 3, 2012

I’m sorry, I’m new to this page and I really don’t have the time to read through everything on here. I do admit you have excellent quotes supporting the choice to abstain from accepting your innate problem. But could you please post in reply your “go-to” quote. The one you use that specifically tells gay people they’re going to hell.

Thank you.

Rasheed Eldin - April 4, 2012

It’s not really about “go-to quotes”, but you can find discussion of how the Qur’an prohibits homosexuality here:

http://gaymuslims.org/2007/02/23/why-were-the-sodomites-destroyed/

(NB: this is only *part* of the material, as your time is limited and so are my writings.)

Your last sentence is mistaken, because we do not say (as our religion does not say) that “gay people are going to hell”. All we are saying (as Islam clearly teaches) is that acting on homosexual desires is sinful. As for what happens to sinful people, that is known and obvious. But the door of repentance is open for everyone. Nobody is punished for what they “are”, but for what they do.

12. ﻣﺴﻠﻢ ﺳﻜﻴﻄﺮ (@muslim_sk8r) - May 1, 2012

I like what you said in the comment to number 5 about knowing the truth of islam and not putting desires over the truth. This not only can apply To conquering sexual desires but all other compromising desires as well. Keep up the good work on this website, challenging ignorance by spreading knowledge

13. Nula Dee - July 17, 2012

The circular arguments of islam conspiring against what it constructs as “deviants” should never be allowed to dominate rational, scientific understanding of human behaviour in society. I am thankful that I live in a (Western) society that accepts a broad range of religions, spiritualities and atheistic beliefs, and that these beliefs do not dictate how the government treats its citizens, and how they treat each other. I hope the types of religious beliefs the writer espouses will remain firmly in the minority and never influence the government of this country.

Rasheed Eldin - July 17, 2012

Care to point out the “circular arguments”, since you claim to be so enamoured with rationality?

14. Abood - August 10, 2012

I am not defined by my sexuality, but by my religion. Conversely I do not feel guilt for being gay as I have always been this way, however I do not feel the need to be out to the world about it. My main goal is to still practice my faith the best way I know how.

Sex is not something I have indulged in… and despite being sexual on the rare occasion, in a few years I will be a ’40 Year Old Virgin’. Abstinence is tough, especially when belonging to a sexual minority that is so sexually promiscuous. Trying to find a guy to have a relationship with is tough coz anal sex seems to be a must for most (especially amongst other gay Middle Easterners)

Not looking forward to a future being alone when now today, most of my friends have gotten married with kids, but I pray that I still have a long healthy life and Allah rewards me for my patience.

Just had to vent. Two cents :-)

Salaam.

15. Philippines - December 5, 2012

Assalamu alaikom ww brother Rasheed and all other brothers with you ;) I just want you to know that I still keep checking this site out. I learned of this years ago and alhamdulillah, I benefited a lot from this. I pray that you guys are okay and I hope that you would still keep this site up! Jazakallahu khairan ;)

Rasheed Eldin - December 6, 2012

Wa ‘alaikum as-salam,

Thank you for asking, we’re all fine but busy, just updating this blog infrequently, and responding to comments as they come. Please keep us in your prayers, as you are in ours.

16. no help - April 3, 2013

Rasheed Eldin, you do not seem very learned about this topic at all you evade every question that was posed in this forum. What is the point of this website, just to tell gay people that they’re disgusting and to move on with their lives?

Rasheed Eldin - April 3, 2013

Quite the opposite, to tell people that they are better than what the homosexualist movement tells them they are, and yes, to move on with life in the pleasure of Allah.

Exactly which questions have I evaded?

17. Paul Williams - May 17, 2013

The Church and same sex attraction: some observations by a Muslim

http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2013/05/17/11842/

Rasheed Eldin - May 17, 2013

Thanks, very interesting.

18. Ray Mahloji - February 18, 2014

I like men and women and If I was back in my home country they would behead me.

19. ex-gay(repented) - February 28, 2014

Can I have a same-sex spouse in janna if I avoid to practice gay in this world? Or is homosexuality forbidden even in paradise? I just say this because Quran says everyone can enjoy everything they wish in janna.

Rasheed Eldin - February 28, 2014

Salam. I wouldn’t venture to speak of details of the Unseen which our Lord has not specified, but we can certainly rely upon the general statements you referred to: that the people of Jannah will get everything they desire and call for. So even if not the thing that you asked about, then something better which we want more and enjoy more! May Allah make us people of Jannah.


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