Oops June 28, 2011
Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Media.trackback
One Rabayl Manzoor has linked to this blog in the midst of her argument for “gay rights in Pakistan“, citing it as an example of:
…practicing [sic] Muslims who have managed to reconcile their sexual orientation and faith and find no reason to focus on conflict within the two.
Well, there is some truth in that, in that the matter is very clear from an Islamic perspective: acting on homosexual desires is forbidden by our Creator, and so whether we talk about “same-sex attraction” (as we do) or “orientation”, the duty of every Muslim towards it is the same.
When it comes to “conflict” between worship and desires, between dunya and Akhirah, there really is no contest.
Another oopsie: the pro-homosexuality “scholar” (or, it seems, Manzoor herself) cited the Qur’an 49:3 when she presumably meant 49:13. As the refuted argument goes, Allah has created diversity of all types, so all diversity should be accepted. Note that the Qur’an calls our attention to diversity of the following kinds and made them signs of His power and beauty: two genders, many nations and tribes, many languages and colours, and even the fact that not everyone will follow the truth of Islam.
Did you spot sexual orientation anywhere? And if we take this argument too seriously, couldn’t any deviant tendency be gathered under the umbrella of diversity?
But then again, there is a secret to Manzoor quoting 49:3. It reads:
Indeed, those who lower their voices before the Messenger of Allah – they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for righteousness. For them is forgiveness and great reward.
If we study the meanings of this surah, we understand that these are the people who show utmost respect for the Messenger of Allah (peace be on him), submitting to the commands of God as revealed in the Qur’an and Sunnah, not pushing their own opinions and desires.
I have written much on the topic of homosexuality in Islam but this is the first time I have come across an attempt to reconcile the faith with being gay. Perhaps you can explain why a loving God should make it clear to so many of his creation that he despises them?
The pleasure and displeasure of Allah towards certain of His creatures is related to their obedience or disregard for His guidance and commandments, not according to how they were created.
As you say you have written a lot, I would hope that you have researched a lot. In that case, the naivety of your statement/question/objection is surprising – I mean no offence in saying so.
If you wish to engage in constructive dialogue with us, please read quite thoroughly and extensively and try to understand our message before commenting on it.
I think what you are saying here is that Allah despises the act of gay sex but He does not despise those who are gay and resist/deny their natural impulses. Am I right?
This is the argument put forward by all the believers in the Abrahamic religions who attempt to reconcile a supposedly merciful, loving God consigning those who wish to have a loving relationship with a member of the same sex to everlasting fiery torment.
So God creates some of us gay as a test then? It does seem a very strange kind of test – “I’ll design your libido so that you will have an overwhelming desire to have sex with other men but if you act upon those overwhelming desires I’ll burn the flesh off your back for eternity…”
And how do you explain the prophet telling us to turn out of our houses those who “act” in a gay way. This doesn’t seem to be the actions of a perfect human being whom we must all emulate
I’m afraid you are demonstrating a lack of research, both of Islam itself, and of this site, despite my request. For one thing, we don’t go along with labelling people as “gay” because of some feelings they have.
Moreover, you completely misunderstand Islamic teachings if you think that punishment for sins (short of disbelief) is “everlasting”.
As for the question (if that’s what it was), please provide evidence and we can discuss it.
Allah created two genders? Think again. People are born intersex, so that makes at least three genders, and that raises the question: who do these people get to love? Clearly the idea of one-man-one-woman does not work for these people, because they are neither fully man nor fully woman. Sure, the doctor can do a little surgery at birth (normally it’s easier to snip off the male genitalia), but that doesn’t change who they were born as.
There is what the Qur’an says (in numerous verses, e.g. 75:39, 92:3) and then there is what you say. For knowledge about Allah and His creation, any right-thinking Muslim will take the explicit word of revelation.
I don’t deny the existence of such exceptions, but even in your own explanation, you have used the term “intersex”, i.e. between two sexes. So rather than three genders, that sounds closer to another state between two genders. If people choose to define it otherwise, that will not affect the reality of creation.
Finally, such cases are indeed worthy of attention and consideration by scholars, whereas people simply feeling attraction to the same sex (while having no confusion, let alone physical aberration) regarding their gender identity, should think twice carefully making analogies with such anomalies.
Question: What is it that your looking for? In Islam? It’s clearly forbidden in Islam to do gay sex and it’s in some way people who have gay attraction are somewhat ‘disgusting’..
Okay, so let’s make it clear what you’re really saying.that having gay attraction is okay but doing it is not? Meaning the right way to do for those ‘gay’ people are for abstaining sex..? And other things I presumed: Love, etc..
Is that true? If that’s true, then, the only way for some gay man/woman to be accepted by God is to abstain them self from pleasures. These sexual pleasures.. That’s in a way transcend to any other pleasures..? Am I understanding correctly..?
Then, if I may continue, do you know that Muhammad married more than 4 woman, and one of them was a 9 year old girl. And it is okay back at the time to have sex with your right hand woman ? Or if I remember correctly, it’s okay to have sex with your slaves..? And if my history lesson is correct, it’s okay to have contractual marriages? Meaning I can marry a prostitute for just one day, have sex with her, and be done with it?
So.. it’s okay for these men to have pleasures, sexual pleasures, many of them, while “gay” men (I put the quote here because you don’t like to label them, I just simply meant it for people who have same-sex attractions)..
While gay men are not allowed to have such pleasures..?
Am I understanding correctly..
And now to put the end to this question : What kind of cult is this..?
Inada, this “cult” of a billion people is also responsible for some of the greatest achievements of civilisation, so please show a little respect while trying to learn, if that is indeed your aim.
As I think you’ve noticed, we don’t label people “gay” in such a way that being as such is inevitable and unchangeable, because change is possible in principle, and in practice varies from person to person.
The rule is that men cannot have sex with other men, nor women with women. There is no rule telling “gay men” what to do or not to do. Someone could have SSA without that negating opposite-sex attraction (e.g. what they call “bi”). Someone who was called “gay” in the past might get married today, so marriage is not ruled out: only unlawful relations.
Regarding your other points, you are partly mistaken, especially that there is no “temporary marriage” in mainstream Islam. But all that you are proving is that there are many routes of “halal”, so there is no excuse for “haram”.
i want to react to this article.
I am Julien ( Giulio974 ) French , gay and good looking.
At present, i live in ile de la Réunion, but before, I met a Pakistanese man in Karachi (what a man) and the fact that we have to hide our relationship towards his family made me sick .
So the only way to live our love as gays, is to run away and live in French island like Réunion island or in California.
So sad, but true.
And what will you do for your next lives? I don’t know if this message is genuine (as I don’t see what thinking of yourself as “good looking” has to do with anything) but what’s sad is if someone would know the truth of Islam but give precedence to his desires over the truth. May God guide both of you.
I am really amazed at the differences of opinions here!
I am curious about the particular person Rashid Eldin. I believe you are the Ayub of the story and you have abstained from same sex relationship. I am really amazed how you have isolated yourself and I dont know how do you it! have you at-last mastered your SSA. Are you not attracted to men anymore? Have you gotten married? I don’t know but please enlighten me with the knowledge how did you so it? i have tried repeatedly but ended up feeling worse and anxious. i have even found a verse in the Quran that talks about men who does not desire women. After I did I have stopped myself from asking Allah(swt) ti change me because the verse is pretty clear. But reading your posts and your replies, I am just amazed( shoked, actually). so yes please be kind enough to answer my question.
Salam – I don’t make a habit of talking about myself, but there is an online group (www.straightstruggle.com) where people talk about their personal experiences and support one another.
I love how we sit here and keep trying to shove a square peg into a circular hole. In the end, its really about what makes us feel better about ourselves, isn’t it? The last two comments above mine illustrate that perfectly. For some of us, not acknowledging our sexuality leads to a feeling of emptiness or frustration. For others, knowing in their mind that they have what they may consider a guaranteed acceptance into heaven for denying their desires (homosexuality) and following the word of god is strong enough to make them comfortable with not having such contact. It really breaks down to what is ego syntonic and what is ego dystonic.
So really, everyone is right and no one is right. Just be HAPPY! Do what makes you happy and stop worrying about what others think. If you believe god will forgive you for what your doing, then do it. You will never find the answer in scripture as it is written for the masses and not for anomalies. If you strongly feel that god will not understand why you chose to do what you did and will hold strongly to the point of what was written, then so be it. But do not waste your time suffering on earth only to suffer in heaven, because I’m pretty sure if he’s not going to be happy with you having sex with men on earth, he definitely will not allow for it in heaven – and I’m not super rehearsed on scripture, but I don’t know if these “feelings” people experience will be cured in heaven once they pass.
I’ve lived in both westernized societies and muslims (Primarily GCC arab) societies. Men have sex with men in both environments. The exception is that for one group (in the US, lets say) its ego syntonic and makes them feel happy that they engaged in such activities and in the other group (Saudi/Bahrain) its seen as ego dystonic and hopefully a phase that will pass once the men are able to marry and have sex with their wives. Both parties can end up content, so there’s really no point in pushing one view point over the other.
Blah, thats it for now.
Dear Omz,
The obvious problem with your advice is that many things that make people feel happy now will only lead to unhappiness later on (if we are to consider happiness as the goal, rather than worship).
You are assuming that the matter of prohibition is not clear. Never mind that I disagree, what if you’re wrong, full stop? I don’t see why people who know scripture should be impressed by relativist ‘arguments’.
The idea of “suffering in heaven” is a contradiction in terms, whether we assume that what a person gave up will be given to them there, or whether the desire will pass. To reduce God’s promise of perfect reward to our limited understanding is a big error, on which – I now see – greater errors can be built.
I’m sorry, I’m new to this page and I really don’t have the time to read through everything on here. I do admit you have excellent quotes supporting the choice to abstain from accepting your innate problem. But could you please post in reply your “go-to” quote. The one you use that specifically tells gay people they’re going to hell.
Thank you.
It’s not really about “go-to quotes”, but you can find discussion of how the Qur’an prohibits homosexuality here:
http://gaymuslims.org/2007/02/23/why-were-the-sodomites-destroyed/
(NB: this is only *part* of the material, as your time is limited and so are my writings.)
Your last sentence is mistaken, because we do not say (as our religion does not say) that “gay people are going to hell”. All we are saying (as Islam clearly teaches) is that acting on homosexual desires is sinful. As for what happens to sinful people, that is known and obvious. But the door of repentance is open for everyone. Nobody is punished for what they “are”, but for what they do.
I like what you said in the comment to number 5 about knowing the truth of islam and not putting desires over the truth. This not only can apply To conquering sexual desires but all other compromising desires as well. Keep up the good work on this website, challenging ignorance by spreading knowledge