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Strugglers: the homosexualist blind-spot? March 21, 2011

Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Ex-Gay, Homosexualists.
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Exodus International, a Christian organisation, has produced a smartphone app that has drawn predictable criticism from homosexualist quarters. According to David Allison of Outrage: “It creates the wrong attitude if you try to persuade people there is a choice and it can be cured like an ailment or an illness, as if you need to be. It isn’t: you are born with it, live with it and die with it.”

Allow me to give a voice to someone who would, in the homosexualist paradigm, be classed as “gay”, but whose opinions, feelings and preferences in life are considered by such campaigners as irrelevant. This is a comment from a young man on the StraightStruggle group:

Perhaps someone should tell David Allison that, conversely, he is creating the wrong attitude by telling people they are born with it, live with it and die with it.

The irony is that when it comes to people seeking growth and healing beyond homosexuality, people like him do not offer the same options for freedom of choice and expression that he would demand for those like himself who wish to embrace the homosexual lifestyle.  It’s completely hypocritical.  In a society where I can legally pay for a sex change, drink my liver out and have unprotected sex with a stranger – the same evil forces that would support such behaviours would prevent me from seeking psychological growth into my existing biological potential.

David Allison, you were born with the potential to make sperm, you live your life making sperm, and you will die making sperm.  Do you think your body’s trying to tell you something? ;)

Why do the gays hate the ex-gays so much?  What deep nerve is our presence striking that makes them so vicious in condemning us?

It’s a damn good question.

I place a lot of emphasis on proper terminology, as the issues are tricky enough without getting muddled up by loose words. I have critiqued the term “ex-gay” on several grounds, but I’ll add another: it’s used by homosexualists to push those ‘cranks’ out of their fold for daring to want something different for themselves other than homo-orthodoxy. Worse still, they are ‘extremists’ and anyone who offers them the support they seek is likewise a bigoted ‘homophobe’. This stance is rife with contradictions.

For the title of this post I’ve used a term adopted by some in this situation, who think of themselves as strugglers against their desires and inclinations for the sake of Allah. I think this is quite fitting, as it evokes the connotations of the Islamic concept of Jihad (righteous struggle).

This blog is about promoting correct teachings of Islam, which can be universally understood and not just by “straight” or “gay” people. Some writers struggle – or have struggled – with same-sex attractions, others don’t. It really doesn’t matter, as I’ve pointed out repeatedly to people evidently inclined to ad hominem argumentation.

Yet even if it does matter, why are the voices of people who do understand intimately what it’s like to be “gay” – as they say – still rejected as crazy? Is there only one way to be gay?

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Comments»

1. Arty - March 27, 2011

So you would then support an “Ex-Muslim” app? That would not be offensive to you?

Rasheed Eldin - March 28, 2011

I couldn’t care less.

2. Coxhere - March 27, 2011

Gay condemnation is because such dishonest crap that “Ex-Gays” preach is the very same “Good Noose” message that we heard from the moment that our abusive parents took us to which ever, homophobic church, and we first heard the “Good Noose” that we are “abominations unto the lord.” The “Good Noose” that there is “something” wrong with who we are. This is the root of our RAGE! We were raised, brain washed, to loath ourselves. When those of us who have been struggling for years to un-do this self-loathing, brain washing see and hear that there are still Gays who continue in their brain washed, homophobic values and who continue to destroy their God-given gift of homosexuality, we are angry. When we hear these internally-homophobic Gays spew forth the Deception of the Enemy, it makes us sick! “You will know The Truth and The Truth will set you free.” And I’m not talking about The Falsehoods of evilgelical-fundamentalisticals. Their Falsehood “truth” is fear-based and, therefore, is not The Truth at all. LOVE IS LETTING GO OF FEAR.

Rasheed Eldin - March 28, 2011

So everyone must come to agree with your so-called Truth?

Bread Breaker - April 3, 2011

An argument based on a false assumption falls down upon its own weak foundations.
What made you presume that homosexuality was a God-given gift?
Is depression a God-given gift? To be accepted and embraced? Man i’d feel awful if i went to a psychologist with depression and he said “accept it, you were born with it, you will die with it, it is who you are, it is God-given, you can’t change and you can’t make it go away and you can’t heal it.” If I wasn’t already suicidal, that response would certainly make me!
You’re right thought about Love being the “letting go of fear”. It is the fear of the world of men that isolated us from it in the first place. Of course we were gonna become attracted to the thing that we identified with the least. In a way that attraction back to the world of men is God’s given way to help us repair the damage. Not through sexual relations with them, but through brotherly bonding and masculine affirmation and finding one’s gender identity through them.

3. gohar - March 29, 2011

I also find the idea that therapists are frowned upon (and ?effectively banned) for offering or researching such areas to be quite unethical, and definitely hypocritical, too.

There was an interview on radio 5 with Nikki Campbell maybe 1-2 years ago with a guy who used to identify himself as being gay, and then decided he wanted to live a different life. It was really revealing, but I cant find it anywhere.

4. Bread Breaker - April 3, 2011

In hindsight, I think it was wrong to presume that Apple would host such an app. Where did we suddenly start assuming that Apple stood for justice, freedom of thought and divinely guided moral values? It doesn’t. It’s a business at the end of the day out to make money. If upsetting the gays harms that objective, then it’ll bow to their wishes. There’s more gays than there are those struggling to leave behind a life overpowered by their same sex attractions. As a consumer group, we don’t hold that much clout. I think we forgot that Apple’s main purpose is to produce technology to make people forget their reason for being on this Earth temporarily (and lose sight of simple common sense like taking an objective look at their own biology!). (Of course Apple products can be used for other, more constructive purposes, but let’s face it, the iPod’s main aim was never to bring us closer to our Creator was it?)

Apple will come and go. As soon as it starts siding with the forces of injustice (and the gay lobby movement, at its heart, by denying us the channels for freedom of choice for self motivated improvement, is unjust) it has sown the seeds for its own downfall. It is here today and gone tomorrow. Those struggling with same sex attractions and looking for deeper fulfillment of their unmet needs of self identification will still exist, and will ultimately realise that their Lord as sufficient for them to find a path out of this. Their Lord. Not Apple.

But thanks Apple anyway, love my iPhone nonetheless. Although now I’m less naive in what I expect Apple to support. Flash and ex-gay apps alike :)

Rasheed Eldin - April 3, 2011

Thank you, that was beautifully expressed.

5. Farid - April 21, 2011

So we make sperm all the time? so what? out of the trillions and trillions of sperm produced by a guy only one lives.. IF he has a baby. All the rest die! And going by the same dumb analogy.. why does it feel so good to be f**ked? Why did god make us able to fall in love with other men and have perfectly functional sex lives? And dont tell me its un-natural – the penis has two functions too. Im so over all this hate and death caused by islam and christianity. God didnt create us to kill each other.. no matter who you are or what you believe. God doesnt care who you love.

Rasheed Eldin - April 21, 2011

Personally I am not interested in building a religion (or staking my eternal fate) on personal feelings and pleasure-seeking. We talk about what divine revelation teaches, and if you don’t care, that’s up to you.

6. Farid - April 21, 2011

Ex-gays never stop being attracted to same sex. You can only really be (basically) ex-gay if you are bisexual to begin with (so u stay on the str8 side) But if you are totally gay – forget it… you will always be gay. Being gay does not mean sexually active gay – its just having feeling for and being sexually attracted to same sex. You guys are just gay guys that dont have sex :) Maybe you guys could get together and LOVE each other. Be celibate freaks together. I really do feel sorry for you guys tho. It is hard to break out of years of indoctrination. Indoctrination that is killing gay muslims. You are muslim and you are gay. Find a man and love him. God does not hate love. Who hates love? How absurd is that?! Silly!

Rasheed Eldin - April 21, 2011

Your understanding of love is as limited as your understanding of God. Any love for disobedience is the path to self-destruction. If you want to think only about one type of love, what about a married person loving someone else’s spouse – is wrecking two relationships worth pursuing that “love” (read: desire)?

Mock the “freaks” all you like, but they prioritise their love for God over all else.

“And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah…” (Quran 2:165)

Mujahid from Philippines - May 1, 2011

Wow. You argue so beautifully brother Rasheed. That was so well said. Indeed, “evil shatters when confronted with truth.” You are one of my inspirations. Yakfikallah=)

7. kairul - April 24, 2011

it’s so hard to love a man if you are a muslim….it a matter you want to raise the love or leave it behind….and you will always in a dilemma, you will never in peace….

8. Rasheed Eldin - April 24, 2011

Bismillah. Allow me to make a general remark not directed at anyone in particular.

So many people come on here talking about love, and although some are merely using it as a cover-word for lust, there is also that genuine emotion that is so powerful that most songs and movies are all about it.

Let’s acknowledge the following facts:

1. Not all love is noble
2. Not all love comes to fruition
3. Not all love brings happiness

So let’s agree that Islam promotes the struggle of the soul (mujahadat al-nafs) and that part of that is to control and guide our love to what is noble, worthwhile and rewarding in this life and the Hereafter.

When Allah prevents us from obtaining a forbidden thing that we desire, and provides us something else that is lawful and pure, the only rational response is gratitude to Him. Rather than complaining that you have been “deprived of love”, why not live a life in the joy of divine love, bettering yourself and serving others?

In closing, I’ll just share a couple of links that are worthwhile for their somewhat relevant contents, and the comments that accompany them.

http://alternativeentertainment.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/be-easy-with-the-lovers/

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/personaldvlpt/character/why-do-people-have-to-leave-each-other/

9. kairul - April 25, 2011

devine love?….it so far to achive it, only throught mujahadah al-nafs we can achive it, but most of us doesn’t want to leave our al-nafs behind….

Rasheed Eldin - April 25, 2011

All that’s needed is sincerity and some effort. But you’ve hit the nail on the head: what holds people back is desires and love of this temporary life. Then what can we do but pray for such lost souls?

Yet people come on here telling us what’s “impossible” without the least reference to Islamic principles.

10. Samuel - April 26, 2011

u r doing a great job bro Rasheed Eldin !
ya blog makes me feel that there does exist a way out of this , i personally propogate the idea of owning a fool proof support system comprising of Allah , His Messenger (peace be upon Him) and the ever glorious book Quran , coz Allah just never lets His worshippers down , n whenever i feel down (yes thats normal human behaviour to feel down n depressed at timez) , i lean on my support system for stability n I always find Him helpin me .
At 21 years of age , m a happy Muslim who has had attractions to same sex but its all in ma mind , it never has n InshaAllah never will metamorphosize into any action or voyeuristic pleasure that my Allah doesnt approve of !
To each his own but for me His propitiation comes first :)
N i m all open for the concept of love , i love so many people , its just the idea of lusty , sleazy , desire-driven love that i dont entertain at all . . .
May Allah bless u for what u r doin bro
Regards SamueL

Mujahid from Philippines - May 1, 2011

Hear hear Samuel.

“To each his own but for me His propitiation comes first=)”

This is so comforting to hear. Yes, I am not alone.

And to brother Rasheed, I pray for his good in this world and in the Akhirah. May Allah bless us all.=)

Anonymous - May 17, 2011

Hello Samuel,

After reading most of the other comments on this page, it is your comment that I need to ask about.

I’m on the same boat as you are (assuming I have understood your situation correctly). I am a young man and am attracted to males. I am also a Muslim. I respect the religion and have been a follower for most of my life.

But now I’m just confused. I feel like a hypocrite to myself. If I choose to live my life as a gay person (and eventually be with another gay man as my life-partner), I cannot imagine praying five times a day without a constant feeling of guilt and hypocrisy.

How could I be doing something that Allah has forbidden and constantly returning to Him asking for his forgiveness and praying for Heaven?

If, however, I control myself for my lifetime (which would be a hard battle, and could also be referred to as Jihad as I would be fighting the temptation in the name of Allah), what would I get in return when from what I’ve read and heard, there is no mention of men for men in heaven?

For heterosexuals too it must be hard controlling their temptations but at least, for them marriage is allowed and actually regarded as a good thing (as a Sunnah) and those who keep their faith strong in this world are promised partners in the hereafter.

But what can I expect in return? I know it seems selfish but I need to know so I know how I choose to live my life. As far as I know, there is no promise that if I control myself from the temptations that I will be finally allowed to be with a man in the hereafter. As far as I know, there is no promise either that I will be made straight and then allowed to be with a woman.

I feel that following Islam makes me a better person and it allows me to be better in control over myself. Of course, like all religions, it teaches good things as well. But I would do those good things even if I wasn’t religious. Like I try not to lie and hurt anyone even at times when I have little faith in Islam. However, other aspects of control, I get from the religion itself.

Despite this, I feel I cannot follow something that does not even acknowledge my identity. I have not done all my research. So there may be answers in the Qur’an and I hope there are. My comment is not to judge, but rather to gain a solution. I do not mean to criticize Islam in any way. As I said before, I respect the religion. Truly.

But from what I’ve learned of Islam growing up, there is no acknowledgement of homosexuality as being a true force of attraction towards the same sex.

Some people argue that it can be cured and most (mostly gays) argue that it cannot. But I, being gay myself, cannot take either side. I have not tried everything I can to “straighten” myself. But neither have those who are saying that it can be cured because most of them, I’m sure, are not gay. I am really skeptical to the idea of anyone being “ex-gay”. It could be true, but I highly doubt it.

So, my question to you then is: After considering all this, how do you keep faith? How do you stay strong and fight this struggle to eventually become straight?

Do you not require any acknowledgement, that: “Yes, you really do feel attracted to men and that you are not making this up and are not choosing to do so”? Do you not need this acceptance from Islam first before you start your struggle?

Personally, all I really need is for those who I care about to acknowledge that I’m not lying about it, it’s out of my control and I have never chosen to be gay. If they have any solutions, then I’d be willing to try it because after all, I do not want to live a life of guilt and misery and cause grief to my loved ones.

But I feel that no religion even entertains the idea that you could be gay without choosing to do so, which I know to be true being gay myself.

Best wishes,
H.

Rasheed Eldin - May 23, 2011

Dear H., since you addressed your comment to Samuel, we’ll see if he replies.

Mujahid from Philippines - June 26, 2011

Salam brother Rasheed. It’s been days now but brother Samuel has not made any response yet. Would you mind making comments on H’s post? Frankly, I’d like to hear your points on his case. :D

One point H made that really struck me was his question on “what will he get in return in the Hereafter should he refrain from acting upon his homosexual-desires? Will he be rewarded to experience same-sex love thing in the Hereafter as a reward?”

Frankly, I also asked myself the same question many times. And I’m pretty sure others did too. As for my part, every time this question pops up in my head during my struggle, I just comfort myself with the idea that “There are just things that we need to sacrifice today in order to have it tomorrow.” See, the heaven was described by God in pure imageries because our limited minds do not have the capacity to grasp its real grandeur and beauty. In short, the beauty of heaven is how we want it to have. So to Samuel, just think that heaven has everything you want to have. Be strong brother in your struggle:) Always remember that you are made to seek the eternal. Your desires are created in an insatiable nature. Not even the whole world will satisfy it. Only the eternal heaven will. So seek it. Do not let your eternal life end in this mosquito-wing-size-world. Your life is eternal and it is made to live in the eternal world.

Lastly and most importantly, I would advise you to always remind yourself with this self-comforting thought: “I WOULD PATIENTLY OBEY, FOR ALLAH’S REWARD WOULD BE WAITING FOR ME AND I SEE IT TO BE THE BEST THING FOR ME :D”

11. Rasheed Eldin - May 1, 2011

My dear brothers Samuel and Mujahid, may Allah bless you for your kind words. I have never have someone pray for me with “Yakfikallah” and it is very touching. May Allah love and guide you.

12. OmarDVT - May 23, 2011

You need only scratch the surface of the “Ex-Gay” movement to see that it is a complete fallacy. Study after study has shown that being gay is not a choice, is not a decision, is not anything but what we now call it: orientation. I was born gay. I can assure if it were possible to change I would have, during high school when I worked so desperately to hide my feelings from myself and the world. When I wished to die, rather than feel what I felt. Thank God I no longer have this attitude. Regardless, if you believe being gay is a choice, you clearly speak from ignorance.

And as for the Ex-Gay movement… every reputable investigation of these organizations has shown a group of men and women who fight against their natural inclination, who suppress their feelings, who pretend to be cured, who do damage to their own psyche’s because they cannot accept who they are. If the young man on StraightStruggle wants to know why we despise the movement so much, it’s because we know it seeks to take advantage of a self-loathing that has been inflicted on those men by ignorant, self-righteous, hateful fools who have no idea what they’re doing to these poor guys, who have the misfortune of being raised in families that believe this poison.

If you REALLY want the truth, if REALLY want to understand, talk to people that are gay. Lots of them. Talk to people who have built healthy, happy lives for themselves. You probably don’t even know they exist, because all you see is what you want to see. We don’t stand out, but there are MILLIONS of us. Step out of your arrogance, for a moment, and actually try to do some good in the world. Instead of having your little private chat-fest here, made up primarily of people who reinforce your prejudices and ignorance.

I am what I am. God made me who I am. Mankind is flawed. You are flawed, who think you know what is right, and what is true. You know only what you’ve been told, and accept it blindly. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Why you invest so much time and energy in this issue, is very odd to me. Perhaps you just need someone to talk to.

I wish you peace, though I doubt you have much of that in your life. Maybe someday.

Rasheed Eldin - May 23, 2011

Salam, Omar.

Contrary to your assertions, most comments made by visitors to this site are critical, or more accurately, just letting off steam. You, at least, made some reference to the post above.

It’s evident that you haven’t read much of our output, but are working on your own assumptions. For one thing, we do not claim that “being gay is a choice”, yet we also argue against the notion being “born gay”. Whatever the case, our emphasis is on following the teachings of Islam, rather than redefining it or abandoning it because of feelings and opinions in sexuality.

It is also unfortunate that you decided not only to make various assumptions about me, but to use these as taunts. “You know only what you’ve been told, and accept it blindly.”

Surprisingly, you portray the MILLIONS of homosexuals as somehow hidden, while in reality it is the voice of strugglers that is far rarer to hear. I accept your invitation to talk and listen with such people, and I extend the same invitation to you: talk to people who are living their lives in accordance with their religious beliefs, abstaining from what their Creator prohibited, and resisting their desires.

Greetings from a brother at peace with his Lord.

13. When he came! - June 1, 2011

I’m writing this comment now with tears rolling down! I am really so shocked that i still can’t believe that i am like so! I can neither love, nor have a happy life! I’m really tired. Why wasn’t I born as a female? Why wasn’t I born as a normal male? Why in between? That is, body of a male and tendencies of a female? ;(
I am very broken indeed! I can’t say anything because Allah is perfect and I am sure he creates everything in the best perfect way of it! I am not saying that to please you Mr. Rasheed or anyone else! I say it because I believe in it! Though we’re discussing and discussing, nothing will change! It was, it is, and it will always be forbidden! I hate I was born that way! Why me? You straight guys cannot feel what we’re going through! I man by “we” sincere gay muslims who are struggling this problem toughly! I only wanted to love ;( I only wanted to be happy with Alla! Am I being punished? Since it started with childhood, am I being punished? But a child is not punished until he becomes an adult! I only commented to free some negative energy! I like the blog but nothing will change! Poor we!

Rasheed Eldin - June 1, 2011

Dear visitor,

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking questions, as long as you start with complete faith in Allah. You are certain that what Allah creates, He creates with wisdom and for a purpose. This life is a test, and it may feel long but it is leading us to the Real Life. I don’t believe for a moment that you are being “punished”.

The most important thing I can suggest is to be POSITIVE. If you believe that nothing will change, then certainly nothing will change (for the better). Only by believing it and struggling for it, can you achieve results.

I’d suggest a great place to talk about these issues and learn from other people’s experiences is this group: http://www.straightstruggle.com

May Allah bless you and grant you happiness.

14. tony - June 11, 2011

So what will happen if gays who struggle to live abstain from same sex in this life? What happens when they go the Hereafter? Will Allah purify them?

Rasheed Eldin - June 12, 2011

I don’t know what you mean by “gays who struggle to live”, but I think you are asking what will be the fate of people who sincerely struggle with their unwanted desires, stay away from what God has prohibited, and seek forgiveness for their mistakes. The answer is that they will be rewarded in Paradise, and part of the reward for ANY Muslim is to be “purified” (this term is Qur’anic).

If you’re asking what this means in terms of same-sex attraction, then I don’t like to speculate but prefer to stick to what’s known as general truths about the Hereafter. That anything we gave up in this life will be rewarded many-fold in the next life. That any form of pleasure we desire then will be provided out of the grace and generosity of Allah.

15. tony - June 15, 2011

That is what I meant in asking about people struggling to abstain from same sex relations only to be purified in doing so. I’m glad to hear that. I don’t think I meant asking if there is a Hereafter that will unite same sex together. I think it is a concept highly unlikely. So if a gay man abstains from same sex and enters the Hereafter, what becomes of him after his purification? Does he become as God intended, a complete heterosexual?

Rasheed Eldin - June 15, 2011

I am trying to say that we only know about the Hereafter what Allah has told us in the revelation. I don’t like to impose terms and concerns of this world onto it, and even the imagery provided in the Qur’an is there to help us grasp the beauty of Heaven and strive for it throughout this life. Paradise is eternal reward and satisfaction, no struggle, no sin, no fear.

16. anonymous - June 23, 2011

I have a comment directed to Rasheed,

I only read the first two or three responses to this article. It seems that your responses are very well thought out, but without making an attempt to reconsile your thoughts with that of another person. You listen, but only so you can be heard.

I think the point I am trying to get across here is that arguing is healthy and it opens everyone’s mind, because at some point you will find yourself in a corner but you have to wait for someone who not only has the patience but also the will and wit…We should all do our part to listen without passing judgement. Nobody wants to leave their comfort and let someone else into their body but that is what being human is about. Understandable if you don’t want to do this with strangers on the internet (eye contact is crucial for this stage), but arguing for the sake of boosting your self esteem is a pretty detestable trait in a person.

Rasheed Eldin - June 26, 2011

Dear Anonymous,

I hope you did base your judgement on more than 2 or 3 responses, as this whole thread has been an exchange with various people. In any case, my way is always to appreciate new points and ways of presenting them. I dislike repetition, but I do so a lot due to the nature of this medium. It’s frustrating when people bring anti-religious scepticism here, but I do my best to respond to that even in summary. Even when there are personal attacks (which are frequent), I usually indulge that person for the sake of clearing up any points they make for other readers and hopefully changing their attitude in a small way.

But I’m sorry to say that finding a comment that brings something thought-provoking (even though I disagree) happens very rarely. Mostly it’s clichés that bear little resemblance to religious thought – and religion is the basis of our discourse here.

17. stumblingmystic - June 27, 2011

I’m a lesbian from Pakistan, and I just wanted to mention here that there are gay folks who are just fine with ex-gay folks. I even think there are rational reasons (not based on some silly “revealed” religion) to want to become more bisexual or heterosexual: i.e. wanting biological children with a biological co-partner. Many gay/bi people are moving toward a more fluid understanding of sexuality. Research in this area shows that such alterations or fluidity in sexuality are possible, but not under anyone’s conscious control — make of that what you will. Still, some gay people may just want to give up sex or have much less sex in order to maintain a quasi-celibate heterosexual partnership with someone for various reasons — more power to them if they manage it.

So I think you’re wrong about ex-gays threatening gays: the issue is not that we don’t believe it is possible to have a more fluid sexuality or to give up sex for various reasons, but that ex-gays demonize the choices made made by gay people. If they simply said, this is our choice, and you’re fine to make different choices, that would be all right.

As an aside: you seem like a really moralistic, small-minded person, addicted to the faux security of literalist, textual religion. Would that people like you could become a bit more comfortable with the paradoxes and contradictions of existence … one can only dream.

Rasheed Eldin - June 27, 2011

“If they simply said, this is our choice, and you’re fine to make different choices, that would be all right” – then surely you are all right with the many groups that say precisely that.

Much as I’m always fascinated by people’s assumptions about me, telling someone he’s small-minded is not a way to open that mind to arguments and realities – would that you had any of those on offer, rather than just sneering at religion.

18. @li - June 28, 2011

Rasheed, the reason why many people are against this “ex-gay” stuff is because it implies you can rid yourself of SSA. You can not act on it, but get rid of it? In an earlier post you said people do get rid of SSA. How is that possible? You also said they’re “restored” to opposite sex attraction. In my case, I can be “restored” to a heterosexuality I never had? For all intents and purposes, a SSA person will have to live with and die with it. It’s almost cruel to confuse someone by offering false alternatives :/

if anything, a different term should be used for someone who refuses to act on his/her SSA for Allah’s sake. “Ex-gay” just turns people off. It brings one back to a false hope he/she is long over with.

Rasheed Eldin - June 28, 2011

In the post above, I said that I don’t agree with the term “ex-gay”, suggested that “strugglers” works better in our context, and linked to the following for more details:

http://gaymuslims.org/2006/04/04/were-not-ex-gay/

That being said, I do affirm that people can overcome SSA, because (a) I see no impossibility in that; (b) I know people for whom this is a lived experience. But for someone who accepts and declares that it’s impossible, it’s pretty obvious that it won’t happen.

P.S. If you’re quoting me, it’s best to provide a link to help us see the point in context. Also, because people have frequently used quote marks for things I never actually wrote. :)

@li - June 28, 2011

Lol sorry about that rasheed. That last bit made me laugh, people really do misquote all the time through their own assumptions :)

Anyway, you posted a video of Hamza Yusuf (I can’t provide the link as I’m using my phone, but it’s pretty straightforward) in which he used the word “ma’boon”. Google hasn’t really helped, so do you know any more about the concept/word?

Second, I’m not bringing this up for argument’s sake but genuine curiosity: how did those people you mentioned in your reply to me overcome SSA? Do they have absolutely no SSA now?

And lastly, I know this is really weird/ultra unconventional but….what do you think of a gay man marrying a lesbian, so they can work out having children, going through marriage, etc. at their own pace and through mutual understanding/relatability? I got the idea from this Christian woman I read about who was very vocal on her opposition to immoral things; she was a lesbian and married a gay man. The benefit of such an arrangement is that you can have biological children and as one’s married, avoid adultery (gay or not, one wouldn’t cheat on his/her spouse). Finding aMuslim lesbian is another story (LOL) but it’s possible (I won’t get into that now).

bj - October 22, 2011

Very Interesting and what I believe to be true.

19. Rasheed Eldin - June 28, 2011

@li – I’m going to look into this “ma’boon” issue when I get a chance in sha’ Allah.

About people overcoming SSA, obviously this is a big subject. I did write about it in the post linked to above (and even used the word “restore”!) and the following also gives a basic presentation of what I understand about the issue:

http://gaymuslims.org/2006/02/18/l-g-b-and-t/

Most of the experiences I’m aware of tell me that people don’t tend to completely eliminate SSA, but they grow out of letting them be in control, and there are many people who never imagined that they could be with the opposite sex, but then they reached that stage and did so successfully. I’m not an expert on these matters and I also don’t want to give an impression that there is a magic wand to make unwanted feelings go away. But this is a reality and the results depend on sincerity and effort. We are still to see the best means developed within the Muslim community.

Finally, on this “marriage of convenience” idea. It’s certainly unconventional, and from a Shari’ah perspective I’m not sure of its standing, but my gut feeling is that it’s not a proper solution, yet I can’t condemn those who take this route to solve a few challenges in one go. Needs further thought and information.

Adnan - April 3, 2012

Salaam alaikum
im predominantly a homosexual with lesser inclination towards women…
Im in ambiguity whether homosexuality is allowed in islam or not …In the Quran we have the story of people of Lut who ”practice lust on men instead of women” and in another verse ”Go you in unto the males of Alamin; And leave those who ur Lord has created to be ur wives” and prophet Lut says ”here are my daughters, they are purer for u” ”is there among u a single right-minded man ? ” This seems to me that the people had a lot of lust for sex and got bored of practising their lust with women and so went into men for a change. They seem so full of lust that they would rob and rape the travelling men…the hadith of the Prophet regarding those who committed sins of people of Lut ”Kill the doer and one on whom it is done” indicates such lustful people…So I think such lust as practised by the people of Lut is haram as stated in Quran ….and gay love is not, just like heterosexual love is not…Here I’m saying that gay men should not commit fornication and that their love should not be due to lustful reasons..

In Quran 4:16 we see the punishment of 2 PERSONS (and not man and woman ) having illegal sexual intercourse i.e. Outside marriage as indicative from previous ayah….this also pointsthat there is nothing against gay love in the Quran. Mr. Rasheed please note that homosexuality is suspected of having genetic, hormonal and environmental reason , this being so when we r innocent unthinking immature children… So it really is not seeming unnatural to me bcoz u can find that there have come many homosexual animals apart from humans… Alhamdulillah by this logic I have kept my homosexual desires under control
Will wait for reply Mr. Rasheed….

Rasheed Eldin - April 3, 2012

Adnan, wa ‘alaikum as-salam.

For the clarity by which the Qur’an prohibits homosexual acts, please see the following link:

http://gaymuslims.org/2007/02/23/why-were-the-sodomites-destroyed/

I’m sorry that I haven’t yet been able to undertake a more comprehensive project.

Let’s speak in terms of Islamic law for a moment, and ask what can really define the difference between this “lust” and “love”? The action is the same, and so is its intention. You are grasping at a vague notion of feelings which has no place in distinguishing legal from illegal.

By the way, it is not a *condition* of a husband and wife sleeping together that they be in love! In most Muslim cultures, that would be almost impossible on their wedding night! So would we condemn it as lust? Obviously not.

To make it even clearer: this “lust” you speak of is not inherently blameworthy, even if the word (in English at least) has negative connotations. The only question is where/how it is satisfied. The Prophet (pbuh) said that a person would be rewarded for sleeping with his/her lawful spouse. Why? He explained: “If he fulfilled it in an unlawful way, would he not then earn a sin?”

20. Adnan - April 4, 2012

Mr. Rasheed salamalaikum…i read the link u gave and it says somewhere of ‘supposing’ the presence of actual homosexuals in qawm-e-Lut…logically it should not be supposed…u have to be sure….and the heterosexual people practising lust on men that seems more apt in the story of Lut bcoz the people say ”indeed these are men who want to be clean and pure” which points out that the acts they carried out were out of sexual lust only and not love…..
And speaking of lust and love , these are completely different terms…lust means the craving or desire while love mean s affection… A marriage involves love between the partners , not lust…
Speaking of marriage , the Quran gives out partnership between male and female only . Nowhere has it prohibited relationship between same gender…So i guess gays need not marry they can just live as loving partners.
But yes , I have noticed only one thing in islam which may be against homosexual intercourse only and that is the hadith from sahih bukhari ”A man must not see the private parts of another man (same thing with woman) and a man must not lie with another man under one covering (again same thing with women)” There is no clear text in Quran which is against homosexual love . Only the the intercourse is forbidden as in 4:15 or 4:16 (i cant recall which of these )…..
Solution Mr Rasheed ?

Rasheed Eldin - April 4, 2012

Wa ‘alaikum as-salam. I think my point about your distinction between “lust” and “love” is only strengthened by your last comment. You have talked about two sets of feelings: but what about the action itself? If we take anal intercourse as a specific example, you seem to want it to be permissible on the condition that it’s out of love and not lust! I’ve already pointed out how this attempt fails, but let me spell it out more:

1. Because these are not such as can be defined from a legal perspective.

2. Because even the love (which you defined as “affection”) must be accompanied by lust (you said: “craving or desire”) if the sexual act (abomination) is to be fulfilled! (Pardon me for being graphic, but so you understand fully: does a man get an erection from love and affection alone??).

3. You are trying to create a new legal category called “homosexual” to which different rulings apply. What is haram for others is halal for him. So perhaps you will also claim that it is haram for him to be with a woman! This is nonsense, frankly.

By the way, the homosexual lobby today says things to Muslims and others that are very similar to their wish to “Drive them out from your town”, and yes, they mock our concept of purity and virtue. So you cannot use this verse to make a distinction between lust that occurred in that strange town where everyone was “heterosexual” yet wanted to bugger men, compared to our modern “civilisation” in which the men can have their unions blessed in so-called “love”! Not every love is good, by the way.

The Qur’an and Sunnah are crystal clear in prohibiting these acts, and I pray that our Lord opens your heart to this reality.

21. muslimwithssa - October 25, 2012

What is lust or love anyway, other then a few chemical impulses firing in our primitive brains? Our brains that will eventually be buried and left to rot when we die. Our souls will be freed and we will become truly awakened to reality.
Often love is used as an excuse to justify anything. “no one ever went to hell for loving.” “love is not a sin”. But once homosexuality has been justified on such a premise then we’ve automatically justified incest. Because there are no limits when it comes to love.

It makes no difference to Allah if the entire planet disobeyed Him. He will be unchanged. He will still be the All Knowing All Wise All Merciful All Just Creator long after we’re gone and these arguments forgotten about. It is we who hurt ourselves by following a path of ignorance and in doing so end up hurting and harming our own selves. It isn’t Allah who sends us to hell, We create our own Hell by ignoring the guidance of our Creator.

2:216
“and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.”

If only we hadn’t let our youths be abused. If only we’d been good fathers and mothers and created stable loving families for them to grow up in. If only we hadn’t let them get hurt growing up. :(
Hey ho, its never too late to progress forward beyond a life of homosexuality and achieve your full gender potential. God speed to you.

Rasheed Eldin - October 25, 2012

Thank you brother, and I’m really pleased to see your website. May Allah grant you success in it and in all your efforts for His sake.

Regarding the “hadith” you enquired about (“He who loves and remains chaste and conceals his secret and dies, dies a martyr”), it is fabricated or at least weak and rejected, and scholars such as Imam Ibn al-Qayyim have also pointed out the flaws in its meaning. The type of “love” quoted (‘ishq) has negative connotations of passion and cannot be associated (in a generalised way) with martyrdom, which has categories enumerated in another hadith. Yet there are other proofs that demonstrate that whoever is patient and resists desire *for the sake of Allah* would attain His pleasure and reward. We do not need such weak/fabricated reports.

22. Zishan - November 10, 2012

To the main editor,

I would like to see you write an article about the hereafter/paradise in reference to people who have homosexual tendencies or as you say, SSA. I think it would be an interesting read. Points to consider; Why should anyone abstain from their desires (what’s to gain,what’s to lose, motivations, goals etc)? What is paradise like (descriptions according to Qur’an & Hadith)? What incentives are there in the next world for someone struggling with SSA in this world? Why should you choose the pleasure of the next world to this? and any other points you can relate to the topic. I’ve seen such questions asked before (here & other sites) but the answers mostly consist of beating around the bush with no real conclusions. Seeing as the blog is about SSA, why not address the issue of people with SSA and the hereafter/paradise once and for all. I’d really appreciate it. Thanks …

Rasheed Eldin - November 10, 2012

Salam Zishan, and thanks for the suggestion. We will certainly consider that for the future.

What you’ve called “beating around the bush” may simply be that (unlike some) we are loathe to make bold statements without evidence, knowing that God will ask us about what we say concerning His religion and the world of the Unseen.

But perhaps some greater depth can be drawn out from the authentic Islamic sources to provide inspiration as well as information concerning Paradise, relevant to our topic particularly.

23. StraightArrow - March 21, 2013

all gays are going to hell, but we should love them anyway. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You guys crack me up with this bigotry, its hilarious.

Rasheed Eldin - March 21, 2013

You’re the crack, if you don’t even bother to read what we actually say. Goodbye.

24. Ali Abdullah - November 25, 2013

Its good that you’re practicing more compassion than the average Muslim blogger, but as in another post I do feel you lack empathy in quite a few posts….I’m obviously not saying you have to agree with what opposers are saying…but I’m saying that you should consider and address the reply of people who state that homosexuality is a natural and intrinsics part of their being which is healthy and needs to be fulfilled in terms of relationships…That is an important point that needs to be addressed, and for that you need to be ready to listen and see what it is in their shoes… Only through empathy can you have a fair perspective of this issue…


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