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Daayiee Abdullah: Imam of Perversion January 11, 2008

Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Queer Muslims, Responses.
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“Imam of Perversion”? Isn’t that coming on a bit strong?

No, not when it comes to Daayiee “little head” Abdullah (aka Sid Thompson). He’s taken his filth into a new domain thanks to his devotee Afdhere Jama, with the following video published on YouTube. He speaks about his “first love”, i.e. homosexual relationship.

Look at this man presenting himself as an “imam”, even selecting some Islamic-style garb to give a certain impression, while uttering words like the following:

On that Sunday, Ottis had come by to visit me while my parents and siblings were away at one of my aunts’ house visiting, and of course, being our impetuous selves, we had great sex that day. And on that Tuesday his cousin William contacted me and told me that Ottis had committed suicide.

Well Daayiee, if you’re going to keep insisting that you’re an “imam”, then I will have to tell people that the only thing in which you’re an imam (leader) is twisting and perverting the religion of Allah, and misleading people unfortunate enough to listen to your deception.

I do not say these things lightly. We at this blog don’t go to extremes and make takfir of people, or say that everyone with homosexual feelings is a sinner (as sin depends on actions). We use kind words in advice to those with hearts seeking Allah, and we reason with those who are reasonable, no matter how starkly we differ.

But this corrupter must be exposed for the fraud that he is, lest Muslims start to wonder if there really is such a thing as a “gay imam”. He’s proven through the “Muslim Gay Men” Yahoogroup he moderates (like a fascist) that he’s not the least bit interested in reasoned discussion with Muslims who oppose homosexuality (i.e. those who give even minimal respect to the Qur’an and Sunnah).

While we prepare some more details, please refer to the following articles to get some background on Mr Daayiee:

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Comments»

1. Bravvooo! - January 12, 2008

I can understand your anger but what you’re missing here is the very reason why this film was made. Those who have suffered, executed or their lives pulled to pieces because their culture or religion does not approve of them. Don’t you think that’s frustrating too?

Don’t be offended, you have God and the angels and the prophets and the believers on your side while the poor mortals have nothing but their feeble efforts to try to bring some sense back into this world.

2. Rasheed Eldin - January 12, 2008

Sense doesn’t come in contradiction to God, the angels and the prophets, even though we humble believers need to work hard sometimes to find the best answers.

Tell me what you see as the relevance of this guy flaunting his claimed “imamness” while talking about illegal (in every sense) sex he had in high school?

I don’t think the purpose is restricted to what you suggested.

3. Bravvooo! - January 12, 2008

The man is clearly more of a Deist-stroke-cultural muslim than your favourite brand of orthodoxy. The sexul repression of our culture blinds us to whatever point he was trying to make. What mattes to us is the ways this man has denigrated the religion. The loss of a young man’s life doesn’t figure into the equation.

I think this is as shallow and reprehensible as it gets.

Anyways have you seen that article by Steven Pinker on the New York times? He seems to think that ‘authority’ and ‘purity’ is one of the fundamentals of our moral senses. At a primitve level we can explain why people rate authority over ‘harm’ but on an intellectual level, probably not.

4. Bravvooo! - January 12, 2008

By the way, you wrote that “Sense doesn’t come into contradiction to God…”

REALLY? If you’re interested in that type of discussion I am eager to participate.

5. Rasheed Eldin - January 12, 2008

Sorry, no it’s not shallow, shallow would be to listen and weep and ignore the agenda of the speaker and producer. Yes there is a story in there that is tragic on numerous levels. But I’m not going to apologise for focusing on the aspect that concerns us in this blog, namely the activities of the “Queer Muslim” movement, and in this case, also how they expose themselves as having little to do with Islam and plenty to do with filth.

And on a related note, I’d rather keep discussions here as relevant as possible, and interesting philosophical diversions will have to find another home. ;-)

6. brravooo! - January 13, 2008

……..Yes there is a story in there that is tragic on numerous levels. But I’m not going to apologise for focusing on the aspect that concerns us in this blog,………….

Oh crap! The moral dissonance!! The shut-mindedness of the borg collective!!! Beggars belief.

Can you not even prioritize your…..oh forget it!!

7. Taleb Haqq - January 13, 2008

Bravoo you seem to have a problem with religion in general and Islam in particular. If this is the case then there are many blogs that will be a great forum for you to find out more about Islam (see side bar under Islam blogs). This blog deals with same-sex attractions in a Muslim context and exposes liars such as Daayiee and others.

So with regards to your comment as to why this video was made: This was afdhere wrote as the description of the video on YouTube:

“in this video, the first gay imam in america discusses his first homosexual relationship.”

Nothing to do with the “persecuted” you speak of…unless you have knowledge that we don’t know of??

8. brravooo! - January 13, 2008

Sorry but you can’t be right in one context and not right in the other. It should not matter what your religious persuasions are. If it is demonstrably wrong it should be obviously wrong on all levels.

Furthermore, although I’m atheist, I was born to a muslim family and have an interest in keeping within the muslim culture. Not engaging with my community is not an option. I do tap into several fora and my intention is one of two things:

Either I get convinced that what I’m doing is wrong and accept my predicament as someone without a full set of rights…or…..

I convince my community that what they’re talking about makes no sense. Either result will influence my life in a big way.

You can’t brush me aside and feel comfortable within your Ivory tower of religious dogma. If it is wrong it is wrong.

Did you not notice that daayie said his friend killed himself? The perpetuation of homosexual denigration and self hatred so rife within our community drove that young man to his doom and almost did the same to me. Sorry I can’t pretend I didn’t hear what was said in the video.

9. brravooo! - January 13, 2008

By the way, I wouldn’t have a problem with religion if they didn’t have a problem with me. I did not choose to become homosexual but religions have a choice in treating us with the respect and dignity that anyone on this Earth deserves.

10. Rasheed Eldin - January 13, 2008

Oh dear, Bravo. I honestly thought you were smarter than that.

11. Yousef - January 14, 2008

Oh here we go again, Bravoo is gonna try to turn the discussion about a video that is trying to portray Daayiee as an imam to one where he’s the “victim” of religions. Woe as he, feel sorry for him, people. Bravooo, FYI, I, too, deal with same sex attractions, but I refuse to be a victim of anything (including circumstance). I am now happily married (to a woman, as God intended), alhamdulillah, Praise be to Allah. Grow up and be a man and stop wallowing in your self pity. EVERYONE has challenges, same-sex attractions were / are mine, and I deal with them like all hardships in life.
May we all be guided.

12. Rasheed Eldin - January 14, 2008

“Did you not notice that daayie said his friend killed himself?”

Of course I did, and I quoted it above. But I won’t pretend that I understand exactly why he did so, perhaps Daayiee does, but I wouldn’t arrogate to prete— oh, like you did:

“The perpetuation of homosexual denigration and self hatred so rife within our community drove that young man to his doom…”

If you mean the Muslim community, then no, this was before Sid saw the light (then sat on it). They had nothing to do with the Muslim community.

So what is the relevance of this “imam” telling us about great anal sex he had in high school? Are intimate details of his sexual antics any of our business, or even interest? Does he have no concept of modesty, shame, shyness in matters such as these?

Before someone wisely points it out to me, of course we have to put such bashfulness aside for the purpose of explaining important points as did the Prophet (peace be on him). But what religious lesson was taught here by this fool?

13. brravooo! - January 19, 2008

Rasheed, thanks for taking the responsibility to reply to some of the points I raised. I did not write them in ridicule or contempt to this blog. I feel they are relevant and consequential. Thus entry number 10 will comfortbaly lie out of my line of sight.

14. Bravvooo! - January 19, 2008

Rasheed,

The denigration of homosexual behaviour is indeed rife within many communities not just the Muslim one. Do you really want to conetend that? Where are you heading with this conversation? Daayie mentions a story of homosexuals disillusioned to the point of suicide, I’m quick to point out the similarites that this stories echoes of our own culture and I invoked personal expeirenece but you’d rather ignore the wider picture and concentrate on the pedantic layout of my reply!!!

If you mean by ‘religious lesson’ that morbid and incessant attempts to provoke a feeling of guilt and righteousness then I can’t see any religious lesson. I think he was trying to desensitize our sexual repression and reusltant obsession with sex. By playing the imam with the past sexual history he is displaying an honest opinon of himself while the heterosexual imams indulge in their mathna, thulath and rubaa3 as well as trying to pscyhologically subvert people like Yousef to twist the fabric of their thouht so as to conform to and be forever subjugated to our patrirarchally controlled culture.

15. Wiki - January 19, 2008

even if homosextuality is wrong in islam … there is no need for a punishment unless u have 4 people that actually saw 2 guys having sex … not heard or think or seems like it … ACTUALLY SEE them … if noone sees them … none should care

i would agree with most of u guys that this imam should not talk about his sextual experiences so openly … this is probablly wrong even if he was a hetrosextual … lol

16. Wiki - January 19, 2008

brravooo!

“although I’m atheist, I was born to a muslim family and have an interest in keeping within the muslim culture.”

i know muslims can be harsh sometimes but please donot have bad feelings towards islam. islam is a beautiful religion and it belongs to all the people no matter where they are or who they are … so please never doubt the purity of islam even if some muslims treat you bad …

i think wht i am trying to say is: dont think that your out side the circle of islam if some muslims tell you that … becase even muslims dont know where the circle of islam is … every muslim just guesses and tires to follow wht he thinks is right. …

17. Bravvooo! - January 20, 2008

Thanks Yousef, your sexual attractions are a problems and hardships for you. Don’t assume this applies to everyone. I’m happy with my sexuality, my beef is with those who take the liberty to challenge my own bleeding internal feelings!

If you chose to bow down to the pressure be my guest. I have the dignity and self respect to challenge those and will continue to stand up for my rights as a human being. You can’t ‘grow out’ of standing up for your rights. If you stop doing that it just means you’ve given up and given into the pressure. This is not an attitude to look up to.

However if you want to get married to have children then, well done. If you wanted to get married to tick a box then keep your self-proclaimed righteousness out of my air.

Peace

18. Rasheed Eldin - January 21, 2008

Just in brief reply to Wiki right now. First of all, welcome, and you made some good points. However, be careful with a statement like this:

“If no-one sees them, no-one should care.”

Yes we should care, as just imagine a society where half of the male population was engaging in sodomy in the privacy of their homes: would it be a non-issue? Of course not, it would be a symptom of a serious societal disease, and itself a disease in the society.

We should be concerned about this matter, even though as you correctly indicated, we don’t probe into what particular people do in privacy. But bear in mind also that anal sex is not the only sin connected to homosexuality. Making videos like the one above is another kind.

19. wiki - January 29, 2008

To Rasheed Eldin

Even if half the population was having same sex in the privacy of thier homes … according to sharia law you cannot do anythng unless you have four witnesses … What if it is only you who is assuming that these two people spent ‘x’ amount of time in the same room they MUST be gay … oooo lets kill them … or ooo these 2 men or women were hugging too long, they must be gay … or these 2 men are holding hands … etc etc etc… when does an activity become “gay?” and which gay activity is punishable? … i dont think that it is right to punish two people because they were hold hands or hugging or even a friendly kiss … which leads me to believe that it must be the act of anal-sex that is punishable.

Can you imagine a society where half the population is killed or jailed because of suspected homosextual behavior? How many of them would be inocent? … How can one prove that it was only his friend that spent the night in his room and nothing more? … How can one prove his own innocence? … i dont think a person has to prove his innocence to anyone, it must be the person that is accusing that has to prove his case … Ever heard of “inocent till proven guilty?” and Islam in its all greatness gives us a way to prove that “guilty” which is 4 witnesses …

What you should be concerned about is who is in your bed and stop peeking in your next door neigbor’s bed … simple as that : )

20. Rasheed Eldin - January 31, 2008

Wiki-
You’re mixing up different matters, and speaking of Shari’ah as though it is only about punishments. I didn’t contest the point about enacting a punishment on someone for a sexual crime only after due process, in which the standards of evidence are very strict as you indicated.

[However, a note: it's not true that having four witnesses is the only route here, as what about confession for example? What about someone who makes videos broadcasting his fahishah? Moreover, personally I would need to research the matter more thoroughly before stating with surety that four witnesses is necessary, but that is indeed what I understand too based on analogy with fornication in general. However, I don't prioritise this research because I don't believe that such punishments are relevant in a context in which Shari'ah is not being applied holistically in the first place, let alone in a non-Muslim country! So here we don't focus on punishments, just on clarifying halal and haram so that people realise what they are earning for themselves for their afterlives...]

Here’s the main point I want you to grasp from what I’m saying: we should be concerned for our brothers and sisters in faith not to be committing sins, and we should be concerned at the spread of such sinful actions, and triply concerned to see people trying to justify these sins using Islamic ‘evidences’!

Please take a look at this post for more clarification:
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/11/07/sins-crimes-and-punishments/

21. Bravvooo! - February 4, 2008

I think it’s all to do with punishment. If it is not punishable then it is “haram” i.e punishable in the hereafter.

It’s amusing to see people invest a lot of effort to carefully discern what is sinful and what is not when the basis for labelling something a sin usually doesn’t make any sense. Reminds me of a saying by Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant reformation:

“…Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but — more frequently than not — struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God…”

Sums it all, really.

22. wiki - February 4, 2008

Rasheed Eldin:

the point i was trying to make is that there r two types of sins. One is a sin against allah (such as not praying 5 times a day) and the 2nd type is a sin against human beings (such as stealing or murder). the sins which we should be concered about are the sins that our brothers comit against other humans NOT the ones that are comitted against allah. EX: u cannot punish someone because he didnt pray on time or be concerned about these types of sins. because this is between allah and the person himself. Other human beings have no right to make decisions that allah has to make. who knows? maybe you think a person has comited alot of crimes against allah but allah liked something about that person that allah has already forgiven those sins? Other humans such as urself can only pass judgment on the crimes that a person has comitted against you. Meaning: if it wasnt you who got raped by another guy then maybe u shouldnt pass judgment on other people because those judgments are not for you to make. But if you did get raped then u should get 4 witnesses and do all u can to punish that rapist : )

Point being we muslims must be very carefull and not act like as if our word is the final word just because we r muslims. Because the final word is surely of allah himself and noone elses. who knows? maybe allah doesnt like people like you who are creating hate among our fellow muslim brothers by making a big deal out of something which might not be that big.

as far as laws in a non-muslim country … we MUST realize that we are a minority here and we CANNOT pick a fight with another minority… wht if right now ur sayng that u cannot b a muslim and gay … wht if in the future these white people with blue eyes decide that u canot be a muslim and an american? what will u do then?

all i am trying to say is live and let live … if they are not bothering u then why would u b concerned? … as far as this imam is concerned: we all know that he is not a real imam. Your talking bad about him or cursing about him and gays will that make matters better? it will only make matters worrse by creating hatred ….

as far as my personal opinion is concerned a gay-muslim is far better then any straight non-muslim … (gay-muslim as in he doesnt drink, doesnt do drugs, doesnt go to night clubs, or any other bad thing exept being “gay”)…. would u not agree?

23. wiki - February 4, 2008

P.S

if someone does bring islamic evidences to justify this or any OTHER crime then you better go and check which evidence is right … main stream belief isnt always right … this is the beauty of islam along with time allah makes human beings see evidence in islam that they didnt see before or over-looked … this is the reason why islam will remain unchanged forever and yet be a modern and progressive religion … but if you refuse to accept different interpetations of quran then the result will be that people will start making-up hadith or evidences just like what happened with christianity … look how many different divisions there are in christianity (catholic protestant lutherism churh or X church of Y church of Z) you want islam to be that that too? i hope not…

that why teeth in ur mouth fall with old age because of thier toughness and the tounge which is flexible never falls even if the person dies … the tounge never falls.

be flexible : )

24. Rasheed Eldin - February 5, 2008

All right Wiki, a brief reply to each of your points:

1. We’re not talking about the Final Judgement here – only the judgement that Allah has already made, in the Book He revealed to be followed and applied, and in the teachings of the Prophet whom He sent as a leader and judge in all spheres of life. I know what you’re getting at but if you follow your thinking to its conclusion, you reach a horrible place called secularism.

By the way, rape doesn’t need 4 witnesses for conviction! Anyway, let me ask you about a scenario: what if someone committed a crime that’s punishable by Islamic law, in an Islamic state, and is convicted through full process. Should he be left alone because “Maybe Allah forgave him already?” Of course not, as we can only judge by the outer things, according to the soundest interpretations of the revelation.

2. I’m not going to abandon clarifying the Islamic rulings for the sake of a flawed political notion.

3. What if they ARE bothering me? How do you know? Would you be satisfied if I told you a gay Muslim kicked my dog??

4. To answer this question about whether a “gay Muslim” is better than a “straight non-Muslim”, we have to know exactly what we mean by the term. We cannot generalise. Of course a Muslim is better in faith than someone who does not believe in God or all His prophets. But while many people who call themselves “gay Muslims” are indeed Muslims but sinful, others remove themselves from the fold of Islam by their false beliefs and rejecting the clear proof-texts. And we ask Allah’s protection from this.

5. Yes of course, that’s what we do. Let them bring their evidences, and we’ll deal with them.

25. wiki - February 5, 2008

thanx for writing back :) … ill try to answer in the order aswell

1. secularism is a horrible place? … The only islamic country that is a little better off then others is Turkey and that is because of its secular constitution. There are several islamic countries that apply sharia law and they are the worse place to live in. Lets take saudi-arabia for example. i know you will say “land of the phophet” or “land of the 2 holy cities” … but did u know when you are talking to an arab and as soon as he finds out that you are a non-arab he will instantly look down upon you… Saudi-arabia is hell on earth if u are not an arab … secularism is the only solution …. do u really think that allah will allow hands of a thief get cut off because he stole a piece of bread to feed his hungry child?

– and for the senario you are talking about … i think u missed my point. it all depends on the type of crime. Not pray five times is also punishable in Islamand is a sin, but punishment for that is between allah and the person. It depends who was the victum in the crime comitted. Was the victum a human or not? … do humans even have a right to punish? …

If I were to steal from a person X and the person X forgives me but another person Y comes up and starts cutting my hands off? … If person X does want to punish me then so be it BUT person Y has no right to even touch me.

when you talk about death sentance for something or punishment YES you are talking as if your word is the final word … because you cannot take a punishment back after giving it.

2. And noone is asking you to abandon ur believes but in a non-islamic country they are also asking you something in return: that you dont ask others to abandon thier believes.

3. i am not sure what you mean by “kick my dog” but i am assuming it is a pet dog (animal)… First of all muslims arn’t suppose to have dogs in thier house. Even if he kicked your dog then you should punish him for what he did to you. Lets say that that gay-muslim kicked ur dog and dogs of 10 other people. You cannot punish him 11 times, you only have the right to punish him once the other 10 times are for OTHER VICTUMS to decide not you.

4. If you read my comment i did mention that: “gay-muslim as in he doesnt drink, doesnt do drugs, doesnt go to night clubs, or any other bad thing exept being “gay”” … but even if there is a sinfull muslim he still believes in allah’s existance and that muhamed PBHU was his messenger … and that is all you need to stand among the muslims… isnt it? he could be a bad muslim but still a muslim …….. I strongly believe that an alcoholic muslim is better then a catholic priest : )

who are to refering to when u say removing themselves from the “fold” of islam? the sunnies who follow hadith strictly or shiattes who tend to follow ali’s teachings? Do you mean those who change thier first pillar of islam? and the way they pray? and thier azan to include Hussain’s name in it?

Gay-muslims are not trying to change the holy text … they just dont follow some parts of it …. Do u see women getting accused of removing themselves from the fold of islam for not wearing hijab? and yet in quran it says they should wear hijab? to me that sounds like those women refuse to believe in that one part.

If you fail of follow one part in the quran does that mean you are trying to deny it? and that you are no longer muslim? If so then i dont think there is a soul alive that can call himself a muslim.

5. yes and be flexible even if they dont agree with what you have… toughness will make muslims fall, while flexibility is the key. Even allah is a very flexible being. Remember when Muhammed got the gift of 40 prayers a day? … Allah in his all flexibility agreed to 5 prayers … u see the amount of flexibility shown by allah him self? from 40 to 5 that is 87% flexible … allah surely will never fall like the tough statues of the non-believers.

i hope u actually read all that … lol : )
looking forward to ur response!

26. Saf - April 4, 2008

I’m not sure I can believe this blog/blogger exists. I have to say what a supreme waste of time and effort it is for any of this to be written/thought about, and ultimately read (which means I wasted my time too!).

What a homophobic lot of toffle. I only say this because I am offended, and in being offended believe it might right to disagree.

You go your way, and leave other people to go theirs. You believe in god, and judgement and the rules of a book written and interpreted and re-written over long courses of history during which many many rules have changed.

You believe it, as the catholics believe their bibles, and thats fine. You use your own judgement. But really, why should you CARE so much about what other people, who will never change their mind (as you never will) are doing in their beds?

For those who don’t believe in the same, they worry not. And if there is an afterlife you may mock them, and if there isn’t, well, they didn’t waste their time trying to convince people there is, or having to pretend they were something they are not, which is probably bigger reward to them anyway.

I agree, it is a little distastful that anyone’s sex life should be so broadcasted, and to be a person who claims he is one thing, while being hypocrytical in action (ie a gay imman) is ridiculous.

But can you not see at least, that this man (in the video), is attempting to convey as pointless and futile a message as you are in this very blog?

He should realise he is never going to change islam, and find a new way that allows him to be who he is. And you should allow people to be who they are, and perhaps still embrace what belief in allah they maintain?

If he wasn’t claiming to be an imam would you still have something to say? If he wasn’t a muslim would you?

I know MANY ‘bad’ muslims, that believe in the religion, yet do not seem to follow many of the rules. They drink alcohol, date people etc… but in so many other ways are wonderful people.

I cant believe I worte this much… I would never deign to try and convince you what you believe is wrong, it is your belief. But I would never start a blog that ran into this territory… it would be the equivalent of my starting a blog that began to display/incite religious hate…

Even if I didn’t like organised religion, I wouldn’t blog about it…

(ps, ignore my questions, I shan’t be coming back to read the answers… I shall leave you in your wolrd, and live in my own! Peace)

27. Rasheed Eldin - April 4, 2008

I do have to wonder about someone who writes so much with so little to say, with an explicitly declared lack of interest in dialogue.

I guess I could just say: if I want to write a blog about a subject that I find important, why do you have the right to criticise me… blah blah.

28. lutproject - May 21, 2008

Assalamu Alaikum
First of all, I thought this blog is for the Muslims who are SSA and want to fight with it and do not want to lead a gay life. Please tell me If I am wrong.
If it is, why there are lots of rubbish comments? If you do not agree with the ideas here Go somewhere else according to your belief. I hope people are coming this blog to learn how to cope with their same sex attractions. But those comments of people such as “bravvoo” make the situation very hard.
A reply to wiki:
You say
“1. secularism is a horrible place? … The only islamic country that is a little better off then others is Turkey and that is because of its secular constitution. There are several islamic countries that apply sharia law and they are the worse place to live in”
You are completely wrong. When we look at the history we see that when ever Muslim countries acted according to Islam they were very powerful but whenever they did not they were weak and had to lead a life under the domination of other godless countries. For example, the Ottoman Empire was very strong while it was acting according to Islam but whenever it startted to act against Islam, it started to get waeker and collapsed at the end. Now, do you think Muslim countries are acting according to Qur’an and Sunnah? I am not so sure.
We must only act acording to Islam. There is no other choice. We will be judged according to Islam because it is the religion that Allah completed and chose for us. Your situation is the situation of a student who is studying maths for the biology exam.
Asslamu Alaikum

29. wiki - May 26, 2008

to: lutproject

The problem with an islamic state or islamic law is that the one who is implementing the laws is a HUMAN. And if those humans make a mistake in judgment the responsibility of that will be given to islam which is totally wrong. An islamic state or islamic law is just a way for muslims to put thier responibilities and thier mistakes on islam and allah. which i think should not happen.

Go back to the constitution of medina which allowed jews of medina to live freely among muslims and together the jews of medina and the muslims of medina made up “Umma” of the time. That was the foundation of a secular state 1st created by Muhammed himself.

True, ottoman was a muslim empire however it was not like the saudi arabia of today. in ottoman empire christians were allowed to live freely and it was the christian children that were converted to islam and given the highest education and given ranks in the military or government. Today in saudi arabia christians arnt even allowed to build a church, is that islamic law? and if it is not then who has to take the resposibily of the mistakes made by the saudi king? __ Islam

There are several events when people asked muhammed about a solution to a problem and he said i dont know this is a worldly matter. problems such as how to run a governemnt or how to solve sewage problems in ur city WILL NOT be solved by hadith or quranic verses for that allah has created other civilizations and cultures so we as muslims can study them and follow the best worldly solution to a worldly problem. And that is the reason muslims were so powerful in the 1000 A.D. time period. Because they took greek and roman philosophy and thier ideas and adopted them and used them. But now we are doing the exact oposite.

30. wiki - May 27, 2008

PS. to lutproject

Ottoman empire didnot fall because it was trying to act against islam. It fell because the wife of the suleyman who was the sultan at the time made a secret plan with the persian empire to kill suleyman’s childhood friend. Because he was getting too strong in the government. That and several other events led the sultan into depression which finally paved the way for the fall of ottoman. Ottoman empire NEVER acted against islam however other islamic empires (such as persians and arabs) always held strict attitutes towards the ottomans.

31. Taleb Haqq - May 30, 2008

Salam Wiki,

The problem is that the opponents of the Islamic state use modern day muslim countries to support their arguments. When, the majority of Muslims, who call for an Islamic state, fully realize that no current day state is implementing the proper understanding of Islam as outlined by the Qur’an and sunnah.

Second, when addressing the Prophet, we say peace be upon him, I say this for your sake in order to attain rewards.

I believe your reading of history is inaccurate. In any case, the Muslim empires of the past were not successful because the “incorporated greek and roman philosophy into their ideas”…they may have borrowed from their cultures and ideas, but certainly it wasn’t greek philosophy that allowed the to succeed (greek philosphy was already on the back burner by that time…the greek philosphers died long before Islam).

Anyways, they were successful because they had the proper understanding of Islam and they had systems in place to ensure Islamic based ideas and thoughts were being developed (Ijtihad by proper scholars).

As for your comments, civilizations rise and fall. If Arabs and persians never lived properly with the Ottomans…why did the empire last for centuries ? :) there was obviously a degradation in both the people and the rule that allowed the empire to fall.

As for the state in Medina: It was most definitely an Islamic one, yes Islam allows citizens of the state rights and privileges, as for your claims that the Medina was a secular state…well, where to begin with that…you don’t believe that Shariah was being applied in Medina? What history books are you reading?

32. wiki - May 31, 2008

lol this is just too funny

if the countries today who claim to apply islamic law are not correct … THEN what makes you so sure that you can do a better job? saudi-arabia and other islamic countries r doing the best they can and they cannot perfect it because they are HUMAN and so are YOU.

and lets say u do get a chance to rule an islamic country and u apply islamic law what happens if u make a mistake? you will be ruining islam’s name and its honor. the same thing that saudi arabia and other islamic countries are doing today. It isnt going to get better.

true, greeks had died before islam but it was muslims who revived thier books and preserved them and studies them … look at the arabic number system borrowed from india and the towers in islamic mosques inspired by greek light houses. Quran didnt tell them that other civilizations did.

tell me how do u solve “gloal warming” problem”? is that in the quran? sunna? ofcurse not for that allah has made other civilizations and we have to look in the world for worldly problems.

you canot say that we will make an islamic state and everything will be okay … that is foolishness

When allah created human beings allah gave us a responsibility and that was being allah’s wasir (most trusted advisor). Allah has created everything and now it is our responibility to UNDERSTAND what he has done, that includes EVERYTHING in this world (known and that which is unknown). that should be a true goal of a true muslim. And hevan is for those who understand allah’s world. Remember this is the resason humans are superior to angels because we have the ability to understand we not mindless creatures who just do as told (like angels).

That was the main reason why allah gave success to muslims in the 1000 a.c. time period. Because we understood his world better then others. Now the “west” understands it better and thus allah gave the succes to the west. I am saddened to say that the west is doing thier responsibility as human beings BUT we (muslims) chose to ignore it and YET we expect to be allah’s favorite … what is the difference between us and the yahood of hazrat musa?

I will make sure to say ‘peace be upon him’ next time. I am sorry. I omitted it back thier in order to use as less words as possible to make my point but sorry i shouldnt have done that. But i truely hope that u understand the point i am trying to make.

33. wiki - May 31, 2008

P.S.

Even if it was shariya law that was being applied in medina. At that time you could apply islamic law because there was NO room for mistakes thanks to allah’s prophet (PBUH). But today there is NO prophet to guide us to solve our everyday worldly problems. Today secularism is the closest thing to the law that was applied in medina.

For Islamic law we simply dont have a prophet with us in todays time to lead the islamic law.

Do you turely think that it is okay for a human to make a mistake and lay his responsibities on islam? give me an answer to that? because if say yes then there is no need to argue anymore.

34. Rasheed Eldin - June 2, 2008

Wiki: “Do you turely think that it is okay for a human to make a mistake and lay his responsibities on islam?”

If you understand Islam, then you realise that it’s a realistic system which asks us to do our best to understand and implement the guidance of Allah, while recognising our inherent limitations.

The defeatist mentality you seem to be suggesting just doesn’t make sense. If something cannot be done 101% perfectly, does that mean it shouldn’t be attempted at all?! This will destroy the very purpose of life.

35. wiki - June 2, 2008

if you agree that it is not perfect then the islamic law in the muslims countries that is being applied today is what you are going to get.

Those muslims are trying to apply to the best of thier ability … look what that makes saudi-arabia into … look where iran is standing today. You talk about islamic law yet you are trying to convince me that YOUR defination of islamic law is nothing like the law in saudi-arabia … That can only happen if YOUR defination of islamic law is perfect, which u agree that it is not.

It may not be far from the reality that secularism is probably TRUE islamic law then the shariya law in saudi-arabia. … then again that is my defination not urs and we dont have a prophet among us to deicide who’s defination is right and whos is wrong.

36. wiki - June 2, 2008

P.S.

on a side note: i thought the reason why making pictures of prophet is forbidden is because NO HUMAN can draw or paint his picture with 101% accuracy. There will allways something that is not correct and could be thought of as a disrespect … And now you are telling me that accuracy doesnt matter, a human just needs to TRY his best … It doesnt make sense to me.

shouldnt a mistake in applying islamic law also be considered as a disrepect … i believe that saudi-arabia’s law is a disrespect towards islam and it brings islam’s name down do you not agree? … why should then anyone else be allowed to make his own definations of islam and apply them as he likes and avoid getting questioned because apparently he is applying the divine law (which, as u agree, for some reason has mistakes).

37. Taleb Haqq - June 3, 2008

Wiki, I am glad you are amused.
How are you convinced that any country (without naming any) are “doing their best”? This is an assessment that you falsely made in order to try and push forward you “secular” agenda. by the way, how do YOU define secularism? And where exactly is it working? Does it preserve the morals of the nation? Does this secularism present an environment where God is always remembered (as he orders us in the Qur’an) [I am not talking about force, but creating a real environment of constant worship and reminder of the presence of Allah].
You talk about secularism like it’s the greatest thing in the world, and you go so far as to say that it is Islamic…back your claims from the Qur’an and the Sunnah…you know, the words of God and His prophet peace be upon him, not the words of mankind.

38. wiki - June 3, 2008

Quran is not a constitution it is a holy book. Islam is not an EMPIRE it is a religion.

i define secularism as a government that treats all relgions equally and doesnt favor one over the other. And i dont think islam needs favor of the government to thrive or be succesful. secularism is not anti-religion … it is neutral religion. I know in America government thinks that it is a bad thing that people r religous BUT a true secular state doesnt mind this and i think it is working in turkey. It may not be perfect but atleast thier mistakes are not being blamed on islam.

Like i said u will not find worldly solutions in quran for it not a costitution and islam is not a form of government. Its sadens me that people like u compare quran with man-made laws (constitutions) and try to use quran as such. It is painful to see islam being used as a form of politics. Islam is too pure for this filthy manly bussiness that is called politics. If you do bring islam in politics then there will be critiqes on it comments on how well it is working and opinion of people of how good it is etc etc … Islam is NOT up for debate and that is simply a disgrace.

39. miriam - June 22, 2008

As history shows, gay-bashers are usually gay themselves. Gay-bashing others is therefore a sublime way of hiding one’s own sexuality.

40. Taleb Haqq - June 27, 2008

miriam, who is gay bashing.

Wiki, what is working in Turkey? That women aren’t allowed to wear hijab in order to go school or get a job even thought over 90% of the population is Muslim? Where is the neutrality here through violations of basic human rights? If your definition is that everyone is allowed to practice their faith then this is what Islam constitutes. If Qur’an is not a constitution…why does it constitute hereditary, marriage, environmental, social, economical rights? Why is it that the Holy Book said that any dispute between people should be brought before Allah and His Prophet? It is you that is comparing these concepts to man made laws in order to belittle them. I believe that the Qur’an is a holy book that constitutes a way of life. If Islam is not “up for debate” what room have you left for scholars to have difference of opinion and perform ijtihad…THAT, my brother, is where the disgrace lies.

41. wiki - June 29, 2008

Constitution is a document that out lines how a government should work. The laws you mentioned “hereditary, marriage, environmental, social, economical rights” are all persoanl RESPONSIBILITIES of each muslim regardless of what country he/she is living under… IF you do look at quran as a mere constitution for a muslim country that applies “true” shariya law” then the muslims who live out side the boundries of that country should not have to abid by it. That is what leads me to believe that those RESPOSIBILITIES mentioned earlier are personal for EVERY muslim no matter where he/she lives. These responsibilities CANNOT become a law of one nation and get enforced by some kind of religous police.

Hereditary: there you go now you know how to distribute your wealth among ur children, BUT you cannot make this the law of the land (constitution) and make non-muslims follow it aswell. Plus you cannot even force other muslims to do it. Because if you do then the question arises are people really doing this for allah and islam or because of this self-claimed shariya government?

Marriage: again same issue. you canot force anyone to marry a certain person nor can you create catagories in which people can marry. For example: one law you can make as a true islamic state is that ‘ you can only marry among other muslims or christians or jews…NOT in non-believers ‘ … There you go you are already holding a something against some of your citizens. How will the non-believers be equal citizens of this state? … putting that aside marriage is a personal matter of everyone and everyone has the right to choose and decide on thier OWN.

Environment: True you can only save the environment through efforts at the individual level such as recycling and saving water etc etc…. but you cannot make a law that limits the use of water for every household in the entire nation…… True quran says not to waste water and to use it with care BUT that can only be done through personal efforts of EVERY muslims and NOT by making laws.

Social: i dont even know where you are going with this … now the government will tell me how i should deal with other people? True quran does give us direction on how to deal with other people but that can only be done through personal efforts … you think about how you deal with other people and improve on it and i will try to improve myself also but you cannot make this into a law … can you imagine if this ever became a law? this is just silly… YOU DONOT HAVE TO MAKE LAWS FOR A TRUE MUSLIM TO REMAIN A MUSLIM. a true muslims will be a muslim with or without other muslims forcing him to do or not to do certain things

Economical: True quran has very good ideas about the economy and the rights of the consumers and this is one area i think you can make a law about it and enforce it because if this doesnt happen inocent people get hurt (financialy) and it becomes a worldly matter from there.

“…Why is it that the Holy Book said that any dispute between people should be brought before Allah and His Prophet?…”

YES! my friend yes. That is exactly my point bring disputes before ALLAH and his PROPHET. I donot see any muslim who would disagree with this statement. However currently we donot have a prophet among us and disputes will surely be brought before allah on the judgment day.

“…what room have you left for scholars…”

There is NO room for scholars in Islam. Come to think of it scholars dont have supremacy over the Islamic law like the pope/priests in christianity. The words of scholars are NOT divine. If the scholar tells you something wrong, it doesnt mean allah will forgive you on the day of judgment for doing that wrong act. Please dont think i have something against islamic scholars. Scholars have alot of information and they should be respected for that. BUT we all need to understand that scholars are human beings like you and me they make mistakes and they tell you what they think is the best answer which may or may not be right. You CANNOT stand at the day of judgment before allah and say “I did it because this scholar told me to do it” what a lame excuse! You donot know what is the value of that scholar before allah. The scholar isnt a messenger of allah, the scholar isnt a phophet himself … who is he ?

NOTE: This doesnot mean all scholars WILL tell you wrong information, all i am saying is that you cannot follow them blindly like you would follow a phrophet.

scholars debate! yes yes but they cannot force thier belief onto others. You cannot claim one side of the debate to be right and make it into a law and declare the other argument of the debate is wrong. How do you know who is right and wong? Both side has scholars.

This is the point i was trying to make in some earlier post: Muhammed (PBUH) said that my umma will never agree on what is halal and what is haram. ……. THEN my question is why are we still arguing about this? As far as homosextuality is concerned why dont we try to find a middle ground? where you can follow what you think is halal and i can follow what i think is halal because that is the only way we can live together or would you rather prefer one of us dies? because as Muhammed (PBUH) said we will never agree on one thing. And what he said CANNOT be wrong and we CANNOT agree. I am sure you can follow the same approach to other issues facing the muslim world aswell including shariya law or secularism or democracy or whatever … lets create a middle ground? ya..? what do u say?

42. wiki - June 29, 2008

“…difference of opinion and perform ijtihad…”

This site didnt seem to like ijtihad/difference of opinion when pervez sharma said it but you seem to use it for your arguments. Some how you refuse to accept our difference of opinion and yet claim there is room for that in islam? … Are you muslim?

If there is room for “difference of opinion” then why is it that you are not accepting our different opinion about homosextuality? The middle ground i mentioned in my last post is a way to make room for this difference of opinion. Now if everything was perfect then you would make room in islam for our different opinion BUT apparently this isnt happening just shows how well of a shariya government you would create.

A shariya government will be the 1st step towards abandoning ijtihad because shariya government will create laws and anyone dare question them or think otherwise will be a criminal and anti-islamic in the eyes of the government.

I would say this again <> please!!!

43. wiki - June 29, 2008

I would say this again FIND MIDDLE GROUND please!!!

44. Taleb Haqq - June 30, 2008

Wiki, again you don’t want to understand, Ijtihad is done by qualified scholars not anyone who has anything to say can come up and make fatwas/pass laws…this is not allowed in any field of academics and certainly not in Islamic Jurisprudence.

Second…so, let me ask you something…what if someone decides to withhold the rights of his brothers and sisters or withhold the rights of his wife post-divorce etc…you believe there should be no islamic laws to protect that? under an Islamic rule Are you an anarchist?

45. wiki - June 30, 2008

WOW!

i give up man. we are back at the square one. like i said there 2 types of sins one against human beings and one against allah. The sin you mentioned is against his brothers/sister (humans). YES there need to be a law against it.

BUT you cannot make a law that limits water use can you? or a law that requires you to go to mosque 5 times a day? what about a law that says u must have a beard? are these laws not islamic? why should these laws be part of your new ‘islamic’ government? why not?

yes yes you guessed it these are sins against allah and thus you donot have to right to punish, not a 100 lashes not 50 not even 1.

Homosextuality is also one of these crimes (sin against allah). You donot have the right to punish gays.

46. Taleb Haqq - July 1, 2008

So when the Prophet peace be upon him sentenced people who committed adultery (CONSENSUAL sex) he was in the wrong? The meter stick is not whether or not it is against humans the meter stick is whether or not it is a sin or not. Homosexual sex, even if consensual, is a sin, just like adultery, even if consensual, is a sin.

And by the way, YES you can make laws limiting water usage…of course you can! In order to conserve the environment. Are you suggesting that Islam would be all for deforestation of the rianforests and excessive water use?

47. Imam Fadel Soliman - July 6, 2008

Well Mr Abdullah asked an important question by the end of his video, why did Ottis commit suicide? but the answer never comes.
Actually the answer is in Scientific researches made by the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/youth/tremblay/
Gay is what poor homosexuals want to be, but they never gay
the real gays are the straight ones, I wish those who are coaching homosexuality within themselves understand that they are bringing nothing but depression to their souls and will probably end up killing themselves. I pray to Allah to guide them and help them see the truth. Dear homosexual sisters & brothers, if you are reading my words now, go make wudu’, pray to Allah 2 rakaas and ask him to help you and give you the strength then go to this link and read to realize that you were not born that way http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html
Change your cell phone number, erase the numbers of all your homosexual friends, then contact the therapists of Narth and find the nearest to your place and consult him.
I pray to Allah to help you

48. Qusai - July 12, 2008

Salam Imam Fadel,

I do hope that Allah (swt) would end the suffering of all the men and women who came to this life of no will of their own only to find themselves incapacitated by an inability to take spouses and start a family the normal way He intended.

Do you think that social repression in our Muslim communities towards gay people plays any role in driving these kids to end their lives? I think that that indeed must be major factor. It maybe more realistic to presuade the community at large to reconsider the ratinale behind its refusal to accept homosexuals as worthy human beings which I trust they are.

As for the NARTH page on whether homosexuals are born that way or not I’m sure you’ve heard about several papers that looked at brain anatomy recently that concluded significant structural differences between homos and heteros. I think the evidence tells us that this behavioural patterns is inherent in those who experience them.

Qusai

49. Georgetown symposium ‘08 « Eye on ‘Gay Muslims’ - January 4, 2010

[...] Georgetown symposium ‘08 January 4, 2010 Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Queer Muslims. trackback Here’s a slightly old post from “Muslim Apple” that’s worth drawing attention to, as the sister has made a good summary of a symposium featuring mainstream scholars as well as the charlatan Daayiee Abdullah aka Sid Thompson. [...]

50. Justin - September 19, 2010

That is disgusting on so many levels.

51. Straight muslim psychologist - November 22, 2010

Ok people can talk on and on about this and that however the problem still remains that by stapleing individuals or minorities as bad or wrong simply for following their natural urges re-enforces feelings of negativity and selfloathing. religion and state(laws for example)should be kept apart. i myself am not gay and am in fact muslim and i still believe that wether or not we feel we need to help people out of homosexuality it needs to be done outside of laws. You can not punish someone for something a religion states. i recently completed an experiment where i reserched the effects of such acts on the mind and found that 87% og the individuals involved were exibiting begining of behavour typical of presocio and antisocio illnesses and the experiment ended quickly because after only 2 months of enduring this treatment half the individuals felt deserted, affraid and depression. i would like to add that i had not taken them out of their normal lives and pressured them in any way i had simply given them a tape recording with anti homosexual slogans and frases and told them to listen inn on them for 3 hours a day everyday for 1 year -the equivalent of 45 full days.

thank you

Rasheed Eldin - December 5, 2010

Brother, I’m going to go along with your claim of being a psychologist, and try not to draw conclusions about the standards of spelling in academia today. Perhaps English is not your language.

I really don’t see the relevance of your point to what this blog is about. Name-calling is unpleasant, but if you’re suggesting that anything a person feels like doing should be embraced by himself and everyone else, then I must say that is a terrible prescription for the individual and society.

Rather than self-loathing, we would like for ourselves and others to feel shame before God and pursue self-development and good deeds, thus being lifted out of the quagmire of lowly desires.

I honestly cannot see the coherence of your argument, since playing abusive slogans is nothing to do with legislation, and we are not even talking about legislation here, except the religious guidance that as a Muslim you ought to know is more important than anything.

52. The fallacy of “Islamic gay marriage” « Eye on ‘Gay Muslims’ - February 20, 2011

[...] article quotes from Fake Sheikh Daayiee Abdullah, whose senseless rantings we have refuted on numerous occasions. Here I reproduce for you my [...]

53. Yask Ycare - February 21, 2011

u shuld all stop this! U cant b Muslims & homos at the same time.All Mulsims r Htrosexuals!

Rasheed Eldin - February 22, 2011

We don’t go along with this terminology. There are many Muslims who have same-sex attractions, and if they don’t act upon them they will be rewarded for their restraint. Even if they act upon them, and call themselves “gay”, that in itself doesn’t stop them from being Muslim. So the matter is more complex than your comment suggests.

54. Faisal - October 20, 2011

Homosexuality is forbidden period. Any sane person reading the quranand comes on to the story of prophet lut may peace be upon him would realise STONES rained from the sky and destroyed the place because they indulged into gay relationships. It is a sickness, they are good Muslims with a illness and need help this is how it should be seen. What next a pedophile who naturally gets an urge to have sex with children be allowed to indulge in his ‘ feelings’ to all secular Muslims you seem to have forgotten Islam is submission to Allah. Your state is sad, you think you understand religion better than the pious salf and the messenger of Allah. The whole point of this fake imam is. If he wants Yo be gay then fair enuf u hav the freedom. But don’t lie and pretend Islam allows this when it doesn’t their is a consensus among the companions, from the prophet of it’s immpermisablity. The really sad thing is u secularise Muslims can’t really use Quran, Sunna or even the tabieen, taba tabieen. Instead it’s all based on morals of this society.

55. Faisal - October 20, 2011

You claim to be Muslims but can’t prove yor false things from Quran and sunna? Shame you innovators. Also if you didn’t know (wiki talking about islam being the first secular state) Makkah and medina became and is forbbisenfdor unbelievers to enter it is consensus of the companions. And the prophet made a special request to Ali may Allah be pleases with him to purge and free Arabian peninsula of unbelivees and idol worshippers. Upon conquering medina the idols were destroyed. Look and study the rule of the first 4 caliphs they are according to the prophet himself the best and most knwldgable companions and will enter janna according to Hadith. They ruled according to sharia clearly not secularism. And Muslims arnt implemerig sharia to the ‘best of their abilitieas’ it can easily be implemented but they want to fatten their pockets and do not put their trust in Allah. To all seculars we the majority, ahlus sunna always have and always will follow and understand the religion according to the messenger of Allah peace and blessings be upon him, his companions and the righteous and undisputed authorities in the deen the four imams and the scholars of salaf. While tryiing to promote your bidah Yes you will say we are backwards, we evil, old fashioned, Islam is out of date. Subhanallah the messenger of Allah peace be upon him knew of this therefore stated in the time of fitna islam will seen as strange and true Muslims will be as strangers to the society. He predicted in many Hadith singing of women will become popular, tall buildings, adultery will be common. Allahu Akbar the blessed one sad nothing but the truth and blessed are those who hold to the rope of Allah. And know that in the last 1400 year civilisations became extinct, religions, languages died out but even today their are millions of Muslim who follow the Sunna and imitate the best of all in such a manner they even imitate the blessed One in how to sleep! Just know that their will be day you come before your lord to answe Befor him, how can you expect intercession by the prophet when today you have no regard for his sayings

56. Worried4World - November 2, 2011

OMG I feel sick, literally. This is the most disgusting human being I have ever seen in my life. A real Imam wouldn’t ever discuss his heterosexual activities why does this sickening person think he can.

What is the world coming to, staghfurullah.

57. E - January 13, 2013

This blog right here is the reason I’m glad not to be a Muslim. Damn it, I thought Christianity was bad for being so homophobic and wrong, but this is even worse. People ARE born gay, it is NOT an illness, and you all just need to accept that. Religion should never be an excuse to discriminate.

Rasheed Eldin - January 13, 2013

I think your mind was made up before you visited this blog, but full points for hyperbole. If all you can do is tell us what we “need to accept” without any attempt to assess what we actually say, then – whatever.

58. emay - March 16, 2013

As far as I know , anal intercourse is said against in the Quran in 29:29 :- “….you approach men and obstruct the road…” i.e.obstruct the anal passage .

As far as approaching men is concerned, the word ‘men’ is translated from ‘rijaal’ .

I find that ‘rijaal’ is referring to normal straight men rather than the homosexual variant .This ,I conclude from 24:31 :- ” …..at-tabi’eena ghaira oolil-irbati min ar-rijal …” which in english is for ” male attendants without interests or desires of men…”. Here , “at’tabi’een ” already provides the masculine gender …And then there is “min ar-rijaal” which means “of men” . There was no need to provide ” min ar-rijaal” again , when there has already been a reference to masculine gender in “at-tabi’eena” which means ” male attendants” , UNLESS there is a reason for providing so…. .Therefore the “male ” depicted in “at-tabi’een” is different from the “men” depicted in ” min ar-rijaal” . This implies there were some males not considered rijaal (men) in Prophet’s time. These are ones that are not normal or straight i.e. are asexuals, homosexual males et cetera.

Thus I have concluded that homosexuality is permitted in Islam , but not anal intercourse

Salaam

Rasheed Eldin - March 16, 2013

Salam. Your theory falls down on the following points:

1. Lut (pbuh) also condemned them for going to “males” (dhukran) in 26:165. So that includes “men” and your hypothetical category.

2. “Min ar-rijali” may be – as Imam Abu Hayyan said in his commentary – due to the “tabi’een” being divided into two categories, the second of which (aw at-tifli – “or children”) follows right after. As such, it is not to identify gender, but age. Therefore there is no need to resort to explanations like yours that have no support from the Arabic language or books of exegesis.

See also: http://gaymuslims.org/2007/02/23/why-were-the-sodomites-destroyed/

emay - March 17, 2013

Salaam alaikum

1.That would only mean straight men should not approach any male

2. You yourself provided the contradiction to what you just said.If at-tabi’een was to identify with age and not gender , then Allah would not have provided “aw at-tifli” right after.

Rasheed Eldin - March 17, 2013

So how did you surmise that in this particular verse, Sayyiduna Lut is only talking to “straight men”? For some reason you accepted (the consensus) that he was telling them (all) not to go to “rijal” but now you want to claim a specificity not supported by the text or even by any of your verbal gymnastics?

And no, I mean that “rijal” is indicating age, not “tabi’een”, i.e. those tabi’oon are either “min ar-rijali aw at-tifli”, as Abu Hayyan says. At least we can be clear that no mufassir has suggested the reading you are alluding to but not spelling out, because it is a grammatical atrocity.

59. emay - March 17, 2013

salaam

how did i surmise tbat prophet Lut iz talking to only straight men ? I showed it to you in my first post . Another reason :-why would prophet Lut call them to women if they were not sexually attracted to them ?
Yet another reason : there cannot all be people who are homosexual at a given place at a given time. They have to be straight people.

Your saying that (or Abu Hayyan’s ) makes no point.

Its not my fault any mufassir did not see this kind of interpretation.

How can my saying be a grammatical atrocity when it is reasonable logic applied to the holy text ?

Rasheed Eldin - March 17, 2013

So let’s go back to your first post. You discussed the phrase “you approach men (rijal)”, i.e. you were sharing a theory about the ones approached, not the approachers (i.e. those being addressed by the Prophet). So those are two separate claims. In my reply, I refuted the one you stated, i.e. that the ones approached were a hypothetical sub-category of male called “straight” (i.e. rijal) because the other verse says “dhukran” and you didn’t present any theory to make that mean other than what it means! So you have resorted to changing the addressees to “straight” men only, as if only they are forbidden to going unto males sexually. And that has no proof.

As for the two new arguments you made: I am not in the first place claiming that the addressees were “gay” rather than “straight”. I am saying that their actions were in themselves perverted, immoral and sinful, however the ones doing it (or those done to) were to be categorised in your modern framework of “gay”/”straight”/”bi” or whatever. Sex is allowed between man and woman, full stop.

Finally on the grammar: you haven’t actually presented your idea of “ghayri uli al-irbati min ar-rijal” but I have seen a convoluted attempt by one Faris Wells to explain this in a way that does not fit the Arabic language, especially the use of the particle “min”. I don’t know if you are following that particular explanation, but what I was refuting was your suggestion that there is NO OTHER explanation for “min ar-rijal”. As I provided from Abu Hayyan, yes there is. And probably there are more.

emay - March 17, 2013

salaam

for ur first claim….
In Quran 11:77-79 “…is there among u a single right-minded man ” where “man” comes from “rajul” . Thus I have proven here that the addressees are straight normal men who are advised not to approach males in general .

ur second claim which is on grammar :-
“min” means “of, from, among ” and “ar-rijal” means “men” . Therefore “min ar-rijal ” will mean either “of men”, “from men” or “among men”.
I never said there is only one interpretation to the phrase !

salaam again.

Rasheed Eldin - March 17, 2013

Salam. I am happy for you to refer to my own opinions as “claims”, but bear in mind I’m not inventing something new here. You are.

The same question “Is there not among you a single right-minded rajul” doesn’t in fact – logically – prove that the people he were speaking to were all necessarily “rijal”! I say this even though I reject your definition of rajul as “straight” and I am sure that all of them were in fact rijal, regardless of “straight”/”gay”. That’s because a male when he reaches puberty is a man (rajul), simple as that.

You are applying a machine-translation to “min”. What you’ll need if your claim has any merit is a counterpart from the Qur’an or other eloquent speech to show “min” working in a comparable way to what you want it to do in this verse (24:31), i.e. (if you’re adopting the view I think you’re adopting) is basically that of “li”, i.e. to say “that which men possess”. Even if you were to come up with such a support, it would still not in fact mean that the tabi’een are outside the category of rijal, because it would still be that they simply lack that characteristic which is *typical* in men.

60. emay - March 18, 2013

salaam

1.Im not inventing new things here . There is historical evidence that ( for e.g. ) men weren’t considered men if they were at receiving end of anal intercourse . The idea that all males, after puberty, become men is just a recently developed one.

2. I dont know what you mean they werent necessarily rijaal when it is so clearly given .

3. I dont know what method u think i am adopting . The fact that the tabi’een are depicting a behaviour typically different from men , makes them different. An example would be the mukkhanath who is considered “ghaira oolil irbah ” in the hadith on mukhannatun in sahih bukhari narrated by Ayesha (r.a.).Here , unfortunately , the mukhannath betrays to be a rajul .

Rasheed Eldin - March 18, 2013

1. Dear emay, you are advocating a ruling that conflicts with the consensus of the Ummah until today, and suggesting meanings in the Qur’an that none of its exegetes advanced.

As for this supposed historical evidence, it has no bearing on the meaning of “rajul”! Look at the Arabic dictionaries then try again to claim that “The idea that all males, after puberty, become men is just a recently developed one”! You are imposing a strained theory upon the Qur’an. For one thing, there is an obvious difference between not being considered proper men because of their unmanly acts, and not even described with the word “rajul”.

2. Because – again, playing along with your theory for the sake of argument – Prophet Lut (pbuh) could be addressing a group consisting of both rijal and non-rijal and say “Is there not a single right-minded rajul among you?” There is nothing in that to say that they were all, in fact, rijal – even though they were, obviously, because it just means “men”!

3. “Here, unfortunately, the mukhannath betrays to be a rajul.” That is just you imposing your theory again, this time on the hadith. He was always a rajul, but he was thought at first to have no notion of sexuality, which may actually have been the case, but he showed that he was wont to describing women’s features.

By the way, your own quotation of “ghaira oolil irbah” by itself is significant, because that is exactly how the phrase is used in the Qur’an and elsewhere (see the tafsir accounts), because it is a complete phrase and not in need of “min ar-rijal” to complete it. As such, the classical interpretation makes sense, unlike the revisionist one.

emay - March 18, 2013

Salaam

Your presentation of “ghaira oolil irbah” as a separate phrase without needing “min ar-rijaal” and holding that as significant is , for one thing, against the Quran as these 2 phrases are mentioned together in the great Book. Anyways, your point of the former phrase being significant does not necessarily mean so , for there can be other interpretations as to why Ayesha (r.a.) mentioned only “ghaira oolil irbah”.

Brother , I seriously have looked into this alot and concluded thus much ( including the meaning of rajul not being the same as what it is now ) . My interpretation , I find , fits neatly . This discussion is going nowhere. I’m quite sure you will criticize/ ridicule me ( atleast within ur mind ) for making an attempt to stop this discussion but the truth is the truth. This will most definitely take us back to where we began.Your interpretation may or may not be correct , but of what I have interpreted , and I have done so using my right mind , homosexuality is allowed only for the actual homosexuals and not heterosexuals. And if u ask why would heterosexuals engage in homosexual activity , you will find many heterosexuals who enjoy gay sex in many places around the world .

assalamu alaikum .

Rasheed Eldin - March 18, 2013

I would certainly not ridicule you for bowing out of the discussion. In fact, I have felt that you have conducted yourself throughout with good manners towards me (but not towards knowledge, sorry). You have looked and thought, but ultimately your conclusions only match your desires. As for the rest of us, we will follow the clear meanings of the Qur’an and Sunnah and the consensus of the scholars.

Wa ‘alaikum as-salam.

61. AA - July 29, 2013

Salam,

I came to this blog to learn more about progressive interpretations of Quran and Hadith but I am disappointed that such a homophobic blog exists. I am a Pakistani heterosexual Muslim woman who observes hijab, but I am a committed ally to the LGBTQ movement because I believe in human rights and freedom. I also don’t think that Allah can create a gay child, and then punish the child for acting on her/his desires. Dear reactionary and bigoted muslims: if you think it is your duty to fight perversions, look around Muslim countries and fight with the pedophiles, with the rapists, with the misogynists, with the racists, with those killing each other on the basis of ‘honor’ and sectarian differences and ideas of family reputation. You are only reinforcing what the islamophobes say about muslims: that we are blind and shortsighted to any social progress and wholly lack empathy and compassion. I have met gay men and women in Pakistan who are wonderful human beings, many of them are working for women’s and children’s rights, and fighting the class based, ‘honor’ based society. Most of our honor killings are also based on Islamic law and strict rules and repression of sexuality. Please try to understand what being gay even means before making such comments and using Islam to justify oppression. Muslim throughout history have used their prima facie interpretations of a multifaceted holy book to justify oppression on women, children, animals etc. Now gay people are the new victims. Homophobia is rooted only in ignorance and fear of any difference. If you want to quote the tale of lut to justify your homophobia, what do you say about lesbian women? The quran never mentions women desiring other women, so what are the rules for that? women don’t engage in anal sex, so surely that can’t be haram? but then again, we can’t have double standards for lesbians and gay men, right?

Learn to appreciate diversity, the way your religion advises you. Learn to imitate the compassion of the Prophet for those who only ask for their own rights and don’t harm others in any way. Even if you think homosexuality is a sin (which I do not), it’s may be personal sin and is not morally wrong (because it involves consentual sex that does not involve a third party). How is someone’s personal life and sexuality bothering you? why not concern yourself with the Muslim men who stare sexually at your sisters and the fathers who forcefully marry off their daughters to old men out of fear that they’ll get boyfriends? these things are morally wrong and oppressive. Homosexuals only ask that you do not spread hatred and bullying. They ask what Allah commands.


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