Comments on: Disagreement over punishment

By: Rasheed Eldin

Rasheed Eldin — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:44:30 +0000

Dear Ahlam,

First of all, apologies for not replying sooner. I hope you have managed to be a source of support and guidance for your friend, as indeed this Deen is the way of mercy, and so we must do our best to help people in their obedience to Allah and to defend themselves from the tricks of Shaytan.

By: Ahlam.

Ahlam. — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:19:17 +0000

oh and patrick,im sorry but thats a wrong hadith you just spread.
about the women who had committed adultury.the only reason the Pophet s.a.w told her to go away for few years and to come back,is because she had to nature her child.and eventualy when she was done ,she came back and got stoned to death.never did The prophet s.a.w was about to let it slide.
subhanalah,what hapened to this world?please do not spread wrong hadith,this only can get you to somewhere you wouldnt like,no matter how much good deeds you have acheived,there are more important things that should be done instead.. and iman,salah,and all the rest.we all learn form hadith,fom the prophets time.

By: Ahlam.

Ahlam. — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:05:17 +0000

salam a. i didnt read all the comments fully. but for the litle i did read.i just have a litle to say.im a girl,and only today i came to find out my very own close friend is gay.
Islam comes wit faith.people pray,do saddakha,etc.. and yet doesnt make them right in all ways. but the litle iman you have from within guides you.we all make misakes,but our iman being part of our soul and conscience helps us realise the wrong.and only few are lucky to have that.
Now being gay,we are not modern when it comes to that..When a man does come to commit such a sinful act,God’s throne shakes. its unhuman..there was a reason for man and women to be created,otherwise y arent there only man on earth?..i know i might not seem to have a strong point,but what hapened to even morality?the litle morals u have?!..
it is simply wrong.
and on this very day,i came online searching for discussion about the topic,not knowing how i can help this person close to me. but when a women sins(zina) she sould be stoned to death.let alone the punishment of such a man ‘s act. im sorry,but these people are animals.no offence,but the diffrence between a human and an animal is we control ourselves,we dont do what we feel like doing but what we should do.animals dont care wtsoever. and here we are,the world so poluted.there is no acceptance about this matter.and others say it ok.
ITS NOT OK. if u had islam faith.no way it should be ok.no wya u woudl even think about it.because Subhana watanala forbidden it..who are you to go against it?
Due to this,many places are being fludded..tsunami..fire etc.. punishment of all sorts.due to this unpurity.
but fellow muslims,we are very litle against the fight,its us against the world.the others have given up cause the oposing force where much bigger.but its not about number.the fight could be fought by one man in great beleif of his creator and win the batle over troups of man but with no guidance.
i dont even know if its right to pray for this people,im not even sure how to react. so tel me,some one who has pure knowledge,give me advise,how do i treat this person?!whats my first way of guidance?!..
im not asking reply from the non beleivers and those who think its ok.im not part of your fight,against Allah’s rules.so have the decency not to reply because i am only looking for guidance in this matter.

By: Patrick

Patrick — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:38:33 +0000

I have read this commentary on and on and I am disappointed in all involved. I am disaapointed that some people are trying to represent that Islam is fundamentally a literalist religion, which historically it had not been until the introduction and advent of Wahabi’ism. Prior to the introduction and advent of Al-Wahab and his teachings, Islam was an organic institution that viewed shari’a from at least four multiple perspectives with varying degrees of “severity” – for lack of a better word. Thus, law itself was flexible and varied. Further, in the early pre-Wahabi juridical schools, the text of the Qur’an was always used as the first tier of making any judgement. If the Qur’an was silent or vague with reference to the issue at hand, then the jurist would consult the Sunna. From the Sunna the jurist would need to see whether the story or ahadith was strongly or weakly authenticated and everything in between. In those cases where the Sunna, applying to the particular problem under investigation, was weak then the jurist would exercise his ijtahid to guarantee that the community was safe and that the offedner could be redeemed (of course this varies to lesser or greater degrees depending on the school, and I concede that this is really a brief and amateurish presentation of the four schools of Islamic Law but it is essentially true in its methodological components). Islam has always meant compassion, communion with all of Allah’s (sta) creation both human and animal and everything in between. Neither the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) or the Holy Qur’an casually or frequently called for blood to be spilt because someone, Muslim or otherwise, failed to agree with the deen. In fact, shari’a traditionally was broken into punishments and chastisements; whereas punishments were reserved for those who aggregiously violated the law of Allah (sta) in the cases of murder and adultery and usually meant death. Please take note that homosexuality was not in there. In fact, the Qur’an is remarkably silent on the issue. There are references to the sin’s of the people of Lut, which are interpreted (yes literalists are still forced to interpret) to apply to all homosexuals. However, even in these references, the wording is such that it decries the people of Lut for having lust toward other males. Well, the same can be said of heterosexuals. Men lusting for women and women lusting for men would be considered equally sinful in Islam, but it is not punishable by death nor is anyone ostracized from the Umma for being lustful. Murder and adultery are considered heinous, because those two sins cause great suffering through loss (one loss is life and the other is sacred trust between mates/spouses). Do homosexuals cause such harm? It can definitely be argued that promiscuous sex, homosexual or heterosexual, is ill advised as it does cause harm on many levels. But, the double standard causes greater harm. I do not want to come across as saying that homosexuality as practiced in modern culture is agreeable to Islam, but I do not want to say that homosexuals are not agreeable either. However, we too must proceed cautiously when making comments about the actions of others. And, further, our discourse must be geared toward reflecting the Glorious attributes of Allah that are detailed in the beginning of the Glorious Qur’an (In the name of Allah…The Merciful…The Compassionate). Even in these cases where one person kills another person or there is the presumption of adultery, the Qur’an and Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) are very cautious to pronounce grievous sentences such as death, because there are mitigating circumstances and the burden of proof is more than casually high. We, too, must approach this subject in such a manner that reflects the Mercy and Compassion of Allah (sta) I remember hearing a story of a woman during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) where a woman was definitely guilty of adultery and the sentence was death. This woman submitted to the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) and asked the sentence to be exacted immediately, and he said that it must wait for the woman had young children to care for. Years went by, the woman’s children were grown, and the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) was appraoched again and asked by the woman to be “purified” – and Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) gave another excuse to delay it, and this went on. Eventually the woman practically forced the hand of Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) to have the punishment. The presumption in the story was that the Prophet (pbuh) would have actually let it slide. He was in no rush to punish people, but many these days seem to want to punish everybody who disagrees with them. I don’t know the source of this hadith, but I remember it clearly when I first became a Muslim as it resounded the compassion and mercy of Allah in my heart.
Further, Islam is very open to science and scientific inquiry moreso than the other peoples of the book. I’m sure most people would agree that science and Islam co-exist quite well, and that science compliments our understanding of the creation of Allah. Well, I am a behavioral scientist, and I can guarantee you that NO professional organization in psychiatry, psychology, or professional mental health counseling would agree that homosexuals are abnormal. Further, science has overwhelmingly agreed that homosexuals are not homosexuals by choice, volition, or are in any way free to not be homosexuals any more than heterosexuals are. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association, along with the American Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and the National Association of Social Workers agreed upon a joint statement within the past two years agreeing that mental health practitioners should in NO WAY advocate any forms of reparative therapy for homosexuals even in spite of religious beliefs that homosexuality is a changeable condition. In fact, the statement is such that mental health professionals are obligated to treat the feelings of shame, guilt, depression, etc. that are associated with “being different”. I have to laugh when I read those stories of people who claim that they are no longer homosexuals, but yet they struggle every day, most of the day, with thoughts of Same Sex Attraction. OK, well as a heterosexual my sexual thoughts are spontaneous and free flowing. I do not have to remind myself of what I like, what I want, or fight feelings that are contrary to who I am. Thoughts that come naturally to me reflect my nature. How horrible would it be to force myself to be sexually attracted to something I am not just because I am afraid someone will harm me, hate me, or even kill me for it (which is something that does not even affect anyone else). Science has truly spoken on this issue, and to deny it is to deny science and descend into a mythological consciousness solely because of a worldview that is mishapen by culture.
This whole topic of homosexuality really isn’t even a great crisis faced by Muslims or the world. Muslims should be encouraged to perform Salat, fast, read the Qur’an, Prepare for Hajj, and give to the support of the poor. This should be enough to keep anyone busy, and engaged in the service of Allah rather than pushing an agenda. I rarely judge others negatively based on what they do. Instead, I judge others negatively based on what they don’t do, such as faithfully pray at the appointed times in the appointed manner, keep the fast, pay zakat, or read/recite the Qur’an. First do these things, seek Allah (sta), pray without ceasing and leave such preoccupations as they simply distract one from the peace Muslims have with the one and only creator, sustainer, and benefactor of all worlds and all living things. May peace in the Umma be presented as a flower that beautifies the world and shines the glory of Allah!

Patrick

By: tom muhammad

tom muhammad — Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:54:28 +0000

Ramadan Karim!

Blessings of the month be upon you and yours.
wasalaam

By: Taleb Haqq

Taleb Haqq — Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:21:03 +0000

Oh my God, Now I have seen it all, how in the world did 9/11 get into this topic of discussion? Bro, seriously, get a life. It is simple: there are Muslims misleading other Muslims by making them think that Islam allows homosexual relationships, this blog exposes these people and their lies. I’m not in you heart so I don’t know if you or Daayiee or the guy sitting next to me is a Kaafir or a Munaafiq, this is NOT what this blog is about. Since you brought up 9/11, it is the same deal, there are Muslims misleading other Muslims to think that carrying terrorist attacks is allowed in Islam…you get the picture.

Your HIV/AIDS comment is ludicrous to say the least. And even if your argument is true, it does not make it Islamically allowed for men to have sex with other men [even in your so called gay marriages...]

re: spying: actually I am more aware of the verse in the Qur’an which tells us not to spy. I think you answered yourself though when you said that this is not spying [I'd like to know how it is spying, we have a commenter here named Sonia, you may want to have a talk with her as well, she thinks that what we are doing here is "backbiting" of all things].

However, I am also aware of the MANY verses in the Qur’an that order us to uphold the truth and to disjoin the evil. I am also aware of the fact that Allah has created us as khulafa [representatives of Allah's religion] on earth, he also ordered us to call others to this faith. Well, guess what, in order to do that you need to find out what the faith is. And what it is not [hence the exposure of false ideas]. I am a Muslim, this is my duty [just like you think it's your duty to come and tell us off I guess]. Misleading people to evil, as Daayiee and others are doing is evil in itself and it is every Muslims duty to expose this evil and to inform these people that what they are doing is wrong and to inform the mislead people about the truth [THIS IS NOT GAY BASHING! NOR IS IT A CALL TO VIOLENCE] I needed to make that clear…for you at least.

There does seem to be something we agree on: Ramadan Mubarak and may all of us be guided insha’Allah.
Salam.

By: braavooo!

braavooo! — Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:43:02 +0000

Rasheed is disappointed that the video ends before we knew the sheikh’s personal opinon. However that opinion is less relevant thatn the opinion of the early muslims who must have understood the texts and scripture better than us. In fact one needn’t even worry too much about the details of the punishment: if the Quran thinks they should be excuted then that’s that. Burning, beheading, throwing off cliffs is for the choice of the good believer carrying out the punishment.

With a bit of logic, one can answer some of the questions, raised on this blog, that don’t need to be asked in the first place: what sins were prophet Lut’s people punished for? what should be the fate of practising homosexuals? can SSA people fit withing Islam?

It is disgusting to see learned elders so comfortably talk about the different ways that gays should be maimed or murdered. Why? What’s the big deal? Give us a logical answer to the riddle and silence our tongues for good. In fact we shouldn’t even beg for an answer, we should demand a justification from anyone boasting about killing someone else for this ‘hideous crime’.

Alternatively, just come back to your senses.

By: tom muhammad

tom muhammad — Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:18:51 +0000

By not placing the last post of mine you are misrepresenting me and engaging in less than truthful behavior and yet you lecture others who post here about manners or not understanding your use of "slang" when refering to another person. What culture do you subscribe to, the culture of the adab of the Prophet, God bless him and grant him peace, or the one of the faithless? You brothers are so lost. I think you need to take a break from your obsessions with sexual acts between human beings, which are none of your business in the first place and focus on what is within your hearts and what you will bring to Allah ta'ala on yawm al quiyyam. You can certainly recall the hadith where spying on fellow Muslims is forbidden? I know, I know, you wouldn't call what you are doing here as spying, but on closer reflection you would see that that is indeed what you are doing and you are calling on other Muslims to do the same. You have no insight into why Allah ta'ala created what He has, ALL of it, nor do your teachers or anyone in the Islamic Ummah, except for those who Allah grants the parting of the veils to and as Hazrat 'Ali, may Allah ta'ala enoble his face, has said even that would not grant certainty to the one granted such. Nor would those that do receive such blessing be in association with what you refer to as the traditionalists/sufis or the wahhabi/hanbalis. These " friends of God " are hidden from the 'eyes' of this world. Why you are not focusing on the illicit homosexual acts that are taking place all over the Islamic Ummah between men who are married to women and have families I don't know, since these actions are in opposition to the monagamy and marriage that Allah commands in the Qur'an. How is it that so many men feel that as long as they are married they are free to then engage in homosexual acts? W/O being identified as such? Yes, you would agree and probably suggest that they should be punished or whatever, where as others such as myself would say that they and their families and fellow Muslims should accept who they are as homosexuals,and not destroy other people's lives because of their blindly holding on to some backward social more, that in the end brings more harm than benefit. Why are the HIV/AIDS infection rates about 30% among women in the Islamic population of the world? Because men are having sex with men and getting married to women to hide and protect themselves from their respective societies. Then putting their wives and children at risk for infection. I and many others have witnessed this and it is quite prevalent in parts of the so-called Islamic world. These are often the very men who rage about homosexuals destroying the foundation of the family and the Deen and that homosexuality doesn't exist in Muslim countries and it is a poisonous import from the West, or in some cases I've heard, from the Persians? Is same gender attraction and sex going to stop? Doubtful. It is time to take the wisdom inherent in the Deen and in the Prophet's beautiful example, sallalahu alayhi wa sallam, and make it truly applicable to the times we are in, which some are trying to do. There will no doubt be resistance to this, but that is in the nature of human beings and certainly Allah ta'ala is aware of what we do. Allah ta'ala has not appointed you or any other Muslim, scholar or not as guardians of the Deen, as He needs no such guardian. As far as your notion that you and others are correcting those who,in your opinion,are misleading other Muslims,again who are you or any Muslim or believer for that matter, that Allah the Most Formidable is in "need" of your protection? He leads and misleads whom He wills. You should above all be most concerned with your own hearts and with what Allah ta'ala is presenting to you, moment by moment and your awareness and thankfulness for that, moment by moment and breath by breath and leave others to Allah the Most High. Please reflect on what I have said to you here for your hearts are poisoned. This is clear in how you react to the idea of Muslims who are homosexual and their sincere efforts in living their lives in as most pleasing a way to Allah ta'ala as they are able to. " The ink has dried and the Pen has been lifted " May Allah guide us to that which He loves. wasalaam, TM I and many others have witnessed this and it is quite prevalent in parts of the so-called Islamic world. These are often the very men who rage about homosexuals destroying the foundation of the family and the Deen Allah ta'ala has not appointed you or any other Muslim, scholar or not as guardians of the Deen, as He needs no such guardian. As far as your notion that you and others are correcting those who,in your opinion,are misleading other Muslims,again who are you or any Muslim or believer for that matter, that Allah the Most Formidable is in "need" of your protection? He leads and misleads whom He wills. You should above all be most concerned with your own hearts and with what Allah ta'ala is presenting to you and your awareness and thankfulness for that, moment by moment and breath by breath and leave others to Allah the Most High. " The ink has dried and the Pen has been lifted "

By: brravooo!

brravooo! — Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:19:44 +0000

Taleb I think you should take notice of your own self-contradiction. You can’t claim to be compassionate then call for a showdown nomatter what the tone of your critics might be. What kind of shallow philosophy that would not tolerate free speech? As far as I can notice those idiots are calling for the muslim community to somehow figure a way of including gay men and women into their fabric. The fact that this hasn’t happened till now beggars belief. People seem so happy to clingn onto medieval hate speech that smugs of ignorance and bigotry towards people who happen to be off the normal spectrum of sexual preferrence.

There is no logic behind your passionate defence of intolerance to homosexuals. I will not convince myself for a single second that you find it brave to invoke the creator of this mighty and infinite universe to stand on your side in deciding whether those (comparatively) despicable little creatures are right to want to have intimate relationships with people of their same sex or not. I don’t know much about life but from the little I know it seems a waste of time to delude oneself into believing that it is righteous to be intolerant to people. That is my principle.

By: thomas muhammad steele

thomas muhammad steele — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:36:59 +0000

Assalaamu ‘alaikum.

You know sidi, seeing the amount of postings here, it would appear your message is not getting through to too many anyway, so I don’t know what I am so upset about. The Prophet , sallalahu alayhi wa sallam, may have stated that, I’m not so big on hadith, more of an a’mal of Medina man, so I am not sure of the context or the scholarly commentary on what you refer to.

You have referred to Imam Daayiee as an idiot, yes? Is He not a Muslim ? Or is he a misleader? Which makes him what, a non-muslim? a munafiqun? He is a gay Muslim. I am a gay Muslim. Does being labled by people such as yourselves place us and others who are comfortable and accepting of themselves as Muslim and homosexual and actively living out our lives in loving ,monogamous partnerships, in accord with the Shar’ia, submitting to Allah ta’ala as much as we are able, outside of the realm of Islam, are we kafir now?

Why, if we identify as such (Muslims who are gay), do we get smeared with accusations that we are trying to destroy the deen, that we are allies of Irsahd Mujhin, or however her name is spelled(i mean no disrespect, though i respectfully disagree with her on many points as well as her approach to issues), that we drink alcohol and prey on kids, and that we don’t really practise Islam.

These accusations, repeated over and over do lead to hate and violence. We have seen this after the Sept.11th attacks, have we not? Even before 9/11 how many times were Muslims suspected when terrirists attacks occured somewhere? How many times did the media identify our beautiful Deen with terrorism , violence and hate? The lie gets repeated enough and is finally accepted as truth, and then comes the violence and bigotry.
Reflect on what I am saying here and then look at what you are doing on this blog.

Regarding Suhaib Webb, my intention is to bring to his attention what he suggested to the commenter to do regarding his conflict with his sexuality, which I do strongly disagree with as it was the very same way I tried to deal with what he refers to as “evil desires”.
This ” method” does not work, period. I prayed, fasted, left my longterm relationship, implored our Rabb to remove this desire from me. I entered tariqa, said daily wird, made more nafila salat, lots of dhikr., all of it, to no avail. He did not remove the desire, nor the longing to be with a loved one. Its not just about getting “off”. Its about the longing, the very normal human gift from Allah ta’ala to love and be loved in a real tangible way to hold and be held with your beloved, whoever thay are, which in light of Allah’s Pure Shar’ia, not man-made fiqh, which to me means consenting ADULTS in monogamous relations.

How do you expect a man or woman who is wrestling with these issues to really be treated by the Ummah? I can tell you all I heard was get married get married get married. Why aren’t you married?
There will be no support, especially from the fiqh-oriented or ethnic-identifieds Muslims. None. Nor did I really need it. HasbunAllah wa ni’amal wakeel!

It was a very difficult road for me and for many others who live with this and no heterosexual Muslim could really understand, no matter how they might want to, they can’t.Why would anyone “choose” this? Come on man! No one in their right mind would want this, and yet there is nothing we can do about it and I and others have come to accept ourselves and we believe that our Lord and Creator has accepted us and Loves us as He loves all His Creation and Wishes for us to Love Him, and we intend to lead our lives as Muslims who are gay, without fear from our fellow believers who we should be safe with not fearful of. Did not Habibu’Llah, sallalahu alayhi wa sallam, wish this for us?

I was eventually returned to the state I had tried to escape from, and by non-other than my Rabb, in Whose Hand I live and breath. No one could say that I had not held fast to Allah’s Rope. He returned me to the state He wished me to be in as I am confident we are all in the state He and only He can Will us to be in. La Hawla wa la Quwwata illa biLlah! and God knows best.

I am not expecting Suhaib to approve of homosexuality and frankly i am not looking for him or any other up and coming scholar or any faqih for that matter, to give us the ruling fatwa that it is ok. I don’t look to any man for approval . I obey Allah ta’ala and His Messenger, sallalahu alayhi wa sallam as much as I am able. I will bring to Suhaib’s attention the poor and damaging advice he gave to the struggling brother, and that he should refrain from giving such advice in the future.

I apologize for the anger and rage I directed at you and your co-horts. It is not in keeping with the Sunna so please accept my apology. I did not mean to imply that I would use violence against
you, but there is the law. I will continue to struggle against you until you leave us, meaning
Muslims who are gay, alone.Until we are sure we are safe and many do not feel safe, you and other homophobes should not feel safe either.

wasalaam,
TM