This is my first srious visit to this blog, just wanted to say a few things. I feel Muslim thinkers do need to engage with sexuality issues, but in our own framework of virtue. It is something quite strange upon which there are a lot of unknowns that need deep empirical and theoretical study and dose compassion. Aren’t we a nation entrusted with the integrity of humanity? or a bunch of half wit 21st century male reactionaries venting our spleens at the ridiculous to affirm some sense of masculine leadership?

Who knows what will become of our children, or what the parents affected by this must go through?

Recall what Qaradawi said: “Lesbian activity is a lighter matter than homosexual sodomy in practical terms.”

And I quote from Rasheed’s post about what the Sheikh added:

“He recounted a hadith in which Ma’iz ibn Malik came to the Prophet (peace be on him) and confessed to zina (unlawful sex), asking him to enact the prescribed punishment upon him. The Prophet, from his mercy, said ‘No, perhaps you didn’t touch her, perhaps you only kissed her, perhaps…’ – but the man insisted that he had committed the major sin, which is defined and has the prescribed punishment according to that definition. So, Qaradawi says, lesbian activity can be considered like these precursors to fornication, which is distinct from the act of sodomy between men.”
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/06/27/are-gays-perverts/

As an aside, I tend to agree with Rasheed’s assessment that male and female homosexuality are two separate phenomenon, as laid out in this post:
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/02/18/l-g-b-and-t/

If you have nothing to meaningfull to add to this blog please keep away. It is obvious that the forum allows for differing opinions if you follow the threads above.

Sarah – please clarify what you’re asking. Qusai noted that Muslim jurists have stated that lesbianism (as an active thing) is less serious in sin than homosexuality (as an active thing). However, he wondered why this should be the case if both of them involve intentional following of evil temptations, as we consider them.

You can see this post, looking at a programme in which Sheikh Qaradawi talked about this:
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/06/27/are-gays-perverts/
(Scroll down to, or search for: “The interviewer goes on to ask why there is a difference between the punishments for homosexual acts and lesbian acts.”)

Thanks Rasheed for your kind reply. I assumed you would be fed up after my last reply and thought it better to preempt that by volunteering to leave!

However I am beginning to feel our differences are probably irreconcilable.

Firstly the statement you made in ‘E’ is quite problematic. The complexity of the words is open to interpretation. Moreover I find that persuading anyone not to transfer real internal experiences into a postulated internal state would be, put in much simpler terms, to ask them to split their feelings from their thoughts.

Interestingly this is one of the ways Psychiatrists define Schizophrenia. It seems that the thinkers who want us to disowe our gay identity are either themselves crazy or want us to end up that way!!

Moreover, don’t you feel that statements such as ” people who just don’t get it” and “they do not get the facts and realities” can be effortlessly reciprocated between any two disputing groups? Who is exactly not getting their facts right? Who is the arbiter?

Before you answer that the validity of any argument should be measured by its concordance with Islamic principles take a minute to reflect on how these principles were defined by a group who have little interest or understanding of our plight. Trying to engage us into brainwashing our own conscious identities is cruel and impractical. We simply need to listen to the likes of Al Fatiha lest we ignore a voice of reason that has been erroneously excluded from contemporary Islamic discourse.

One last point: I don’t want to remind ourselves of our own misery but you are wrong to say that the misery resulting from the sin, I mean, the test of homosexuality is exaggerated. You are right, you won’t die if you don’t engage in sexual activity but the scoial exclusion of unmarried men (who fail to switch their orientation) and the inability to beget children to pray for your soul after death is more important than lack of sex.

Heterosexuals are told that marriage is ‘nisf al deen’, this particulare exaggeration was intended by the prophet (pbuh) so that no good muslim would dare to claim that staying celibate is an easy matter of no great consequence.

Salam.

A) Do people want to “be gay”? Highly unlikely. But do they want to fulfil their desires? Of course, that’s what desires are! But there are all sorts of levels of wanting. I think it is basic in Islam that we choose which of our impulses, desires and even ambitions that we go for.

B) I think the problem is less about “belligerent heterosexuals” than about people who just don’t get it. Not only do they not get the facts and realities, but they don’t get how they should navigate the concepts.

C) There is nothing excessive in divine tests. “Allah charges not a soul with more than its capacity” – 2:286. But I do tend to feel the severity of this one (desiring something unlawful, lacking desire for the lawful) is a bit exaggerated, when we consider what so many other people on this earth have to go through.

D) On lesbianism – an interesting point. However, I would note that issues of worldly punishment would be affected by the potential outcomes as well as intention. As for what happens in the Hereafter, that is a different matter.

E) Now, you know I didn’t actually say what you put in quote marks. What I said that thinkers don’t agree on is the matter of transferring a real internal experience into a postulated internal state, or identity. I maintain that this might be one way of explaining things, but it’s not in tune with Islamic discourse.

Thanks for the article.

Although a non-practicing homosexual I can still understand why some people choose to follow their inclinations as a natural alternative way of life. Afterall prophet Adam deired a companion despite living in Jannah and having direct access to the Lord.

However this does not necessarily entails thatthey enjoy this sort of lifestyle (again, check the Imaan.org forums). You don’t find ‘perfectly hterosexual’ people longing for a homosexual existence yet the reverse is true. I hope this illustrates my point.

In fact you will find that among Muslims, those who say they are “Proud to be gay” are in fact expressing their disgust at a religious tradition long hijacked by belligerent heterosexuals who insist that their narrow minded views prevail over common sense. Whereas we here are sending the wrong message to our community that we are waiting for them to ‘insert’ heterosexual thoughts into our heads. One group is positively proactive, the other negatively submissive.

There are two well known outcomes of excessive divine tests: either attainment of a sublime state of strong unshakeable faith or a realisation that having to endure a life of ‘tests’ just for the sake of it is a truly bizarre concept.

Of course florid images of monstrous torture at an evil masterpiece called Hell helps us to sober up again and come back to our senses. Of course! We are not really really homosexual we are just deluded and one day we’ll know it! Much similar to persuading a colour blind individual to give up his colour blindess. Utterly pointless.

Some people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali take the quantum leap and break the chain, as it were, while others like the good people on this forum cling on to their trust in Allah and use this as a premise to reach any future conclusions that they manage to come up with. The first group choose common sense over faith while the second group feel the abstract is more relevant than the real. Don’t get me wrong I feel I belong more to the second group!

That explains why the articles overemphasize the distinction between intention and action. When I see that Islamic jurisdiction concludes that Lesbianism is unlawfull in principle although not punishable I see that maybe the distinction between intention and action with regards to homosexual behaviour is not very relevant at all.

This also explains why gay muslims still happily quote that “not all thinkers agree that being gay is natural” as you alluded to in your reply. I don’t even know why you bother to wait for others to define thoughts that belong solely to you. I know that a fine line exists between Bi-sexuality and obligatory homosexuality. Those who are able to make the transition are no longer by definition homosexual and I suspect if they were homosexual to begin with. May be they are realising a bisexual potential they didn’t know they had? Who knows?

Personally I am into my thirties now. I have nver been abused nor had serious father-son issues. I realise that Iam just plain boring homosexual and tired of playing all those pro-heterosexual psychological acrobatcis that the writers of this blog are inviting us to! Sorry, maybe indeed I shouldn’t be on this blog to begin with!! Sorry, won’t trouble you again.

Salam.