http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Maariful%20Quran/English-MaarifulQuran-MuftiShafiUsmaniRA-Vol-2-Page-341-395.pdf
Page 360

My new rule of thumb regarding people who go into deliberate and who CHOOSE to be ignorant when then truth has been made clear (helped me deal with the ‘Quranists’ who are a very confused bunch I must admit!):

So be patient, for God’s promise is true, and do not be dissuaded by those who do not have certainty.(30:60)

I should also mention that I follow this Quranic ayat to the letter and reject the view that people indulging in homosexuality are to be killed: “If two among you (men) commit it (fornication) punish them both.If they repent and mend their ways leave them both”.(4:16)
(how can we “…leave them both” after they’ve repented if we’ve killed them?! =P )

Peace

I disagree here.There is textual evidence in the Quran concerning homosexuality:

1)Proof in a single verse that homosexuality is forbidden;
“Successful are the believers…who guard their private parts, save from their wives or the slaves that their right hands possess (female slaves), for then they are not blameworthy, but whoso craveth beyond that, such are the transgressors” (23:5)

2)PUNISHMENT for homosexual acts among men;
“If two among you (men) commit it (fornication) punish them both.If they repent and mend their ways leave them both”.(4:16)
In light of ahadith and by extrapolation I believe that the implications of this verse are the same for women engaged in lesbian acts.
C’est finis

The matter is ENDED.What more is there to know,save for the disbelievers who twist what is plain and say “We hear and disobey” (4:46) when they do not like what is made clear?

Can you please tell me exactly what I said that is false? Taquiyya is NOT false, by the way. However, what did I say about Muhammed that is completely incorrect? He did advocate all the things I said and all jihad that is perpetrated is due to religious adherents following the doctrine as closely as possible. They aren’t “misinterpreting” it. They are choosing to interpret it as closely as possible.

I’m so sorry you are offended. That was not my intention. I really am sorry. I just don’t understand and I still think my comments are completely relevant and based on fact. In fact, as much as I appreciate your response to me, I definitely see that I offended you and that you are responding to the offense I caused and your belief that I lack humility rather than the main points of the arguments I made referring to Muhammed and Islamic doctrine and the life of Muhammed. I just don’t see how Muhammed can be considered the ideal and perfect person when he advocated and, in fact, mandated all the things I mentioned and more.

When something like 40% of Muslim youth want Sharia brought in to the UK, you have to admit that’s a large amount of people. Those people also have advocated the killing of innocents in certain circumstances. Under sharia law, you’d be dead and I’d be dead or, if left alive, a dhimmi.

The thing is, I read all day long. Doctrine, articles, etc. This is what I do. So, nothing I am saying here is erroneous. I mean, I’m stating facts, not opinion. I know that I’ve upset you and I truly apologize, but I still am wondering why you personally are Muslim in light of these facts about Muhammed that are clearly spelled out in the Koran, Hadith and Sira and have absolutely nothing to do with my opinion.

However, I hope you will not mind me saying that you are, despite what you may think, spectacularly misinformed about Islam! So many of the issues you’ve raised have been answered comprehensively by Muslim (and non-Muslim) scholars, and the sites I mentioned contain much of that. At the very least, you should be well acquainted with those counter-arguments, then if you persist on your hostile opinions of Islam, at least they should be more nuanced than they are now.

Some of the things you have mentioned (e.g. taqiyyah) are plain nonsense. You have misrepresented clear history and misinterpreted many aspects of Islam. I hope you find the answers you seek, but the first step is humility.

However, I guess my question SHOULD be, WHY do you think Islam is the truth? I would assume, as a gay male (not me, you!), you have been forced to be in the position of questioning your doctrine whereas, if you were straight, you may not have chosen to do so.

Once you are put in this position of questioning the authenticity or the likelihood of Islam’s “truth”, wouldn’t you come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, likely to NOT be true rather than true?

I do not think that one should live just according to our desires. We should strive to live according to moral code that makes sense to us, is fair to most, is just, and logical. Herein is the problem with Islam, I believe. And, I have hit those sites you’ve mentioned and I’ve studied Islamic doctrine for many years. Not just the Koran, but the Hadith, and the Sira as well. As a matter of fact, I’m now a research assistant and editor in this field and am working on the Bukhari hadith– making it much more accessible for all by consolidating (not omitting) passages so that there are no repeated sections. As a Muslim, you may have a problem with this, but I won’t be changing any data– just reducing it so that the task of reading it isn’t so daunting (There are many volumes, books, and passages– many of these passages repeat themselves).

Anyways, my point is, is that Islam is the antithesis of peace. Muhammed was a warlord, not a peaceful man. I’m just wondering how WHY you think that Islam is the truth? Believe me, this troubles me to no end, since the TRUTH of the doctrine is that Muhammed was all the things I mentioned in my last post. I realize we can’t profess to know god, but with everything in your heart, how can you honestly truly believe that God would punish gays, hungry children, raped women, etc.? How can you believe that God would allow a man to marry a six year old girl and consummate the marriage at nine and advocate it or at least permit it for all men?

I don’t underatand. Yes, I might be challenging you, but the truth is I have such a hard time with this that I am literally upset when I think about it.

When Muhammed was in Mecca, he was peaceful but only had 150 followers. When he got thrown out of Mecca and went to Medina, he literally became a warlord. As a matter of fact, for the last nine years of his life, he was involved in an act of jihad/violence every six weeks on the average. He advocated pedophilia, stoning, beheading, raping, pillaging, amputations, etc. I just don’t understand how IF YOU”RE A CRITICAL THINKER, this proves that the doctrine is truthful.

I’m going to tell you something and I SWEAR that I am not telling you this to get a rise out of you or challenge you. I have started believing that Islam is a creation of the anti-Christ and I”M NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN! lol. If, however, I was going to convert and needed proof of the existence of God somewhere, I would use the existence of Islam and how I believe it is incredibly evil and created by the opposite of Good to prove the existence of God. Does this make sense? I guess what I’m trying to say is that the proof of a religion such as Islam– one that advocates all the things I just mentioned– and the fact that Islam has so many adherents and is growing on a daily basis– where conversion by the sword is mandated proves to me the existence of an anti-Christ even more than it proves to me the existence of God. I would believe in God by the fact that there is such accepted evil, namely Islam’s doctrine. There is more hatred statistically in the Koran than there is in Mein Kampf.

Sometimes, I find that others wind up bringing up biblical history– the fact that the Bible also advocated death at times. To me, this is a false comparison, because the bible limited all warfare to specific enemies at a specific time in a specific place. Never were the Hebrews told to kill all until the entire world is dar al Judaism or dar al Christianity. No, they were told to kill a specific enemy and then stop. In Islam, you are told you are in the HOuse of War or dar al Harb until the entire world is under Islamic rule or dar al Islam, the House of Peace or Submission.

The trouble here is that if you believe all this wholeheartedly– and I agree that most Muslims do– than we are all destined to live under Shari’a law one day unless Westerners get it together and understand that our freedoms are actually under threat.

But, why do you believe this more than another religion? Sure, you were indoctrinated from day one, but as an adult, can’t you try to think outside the box and question the idea that maybe what you were taught was wrong? Does it make sense to you that gays who act upon their preferred partner choice should be killed? That women or men who commit a cardinal sin should be sentenced to death? That a rape victim is actually thought of as an adulterer? Does it make sense, when you think about it, that children’s arms should be cut off if they are hungry and steal an apple? Or that a six year old child can be ordered to wed a 60 year old man as his first, second, third or fourth wife? that you have rules for wiping yourselves after you use the bathroom, that your legs may not be crossed in certain positions, that women are told what they may or may not do with superfluous body hair, that women’s testimony is half that of a man’s? Does any of this make sense?

That Jews and Christians and any non-Muslims are destined to death or dhimmitude just for finding fault in this doctrine that is the opposite of Good?

Muhammed forced so many to convert by the sword as did his followers after Muhammed died. Just because we THINK something is true doesn’t mean t hat it automatically IS true. Our ancestors dogmatically believed the world was flat. They were wrong. Our ancestors believed the sun revolved around the earth. They were wrong. Many m any many people have and had faith in other belief systems other than Islam and all of them had faith as strongly as you believe Muhammed was the prophet. What makes you convinced (logically, not just with your feelings) that your religion is the right one?

Furthermore, I have nothing against the religion of Islam. I have everything against the political system of Islam or Sharia. I don’t care if you believe in Allah and that Muhammed was the prophet .I don’t care if my neighbors are buddhists and if my other neighbors are Christians or Jews. I ONLY care about the political system of law that they adhere to, and if that political system advocates and MANDATES the death and destruction of all who are different from them and that they support that as TRUTH well, then, then I have a problem with it. Wouldn’t you– if I believed it was mandated by God to kill you or enslave you?

Muslims keep saying how peaceful Islam is. Well, it’s obviously not. But, even if you’ve lived in relative peace, you must admit that it’s only peaceful towards other Muslims. It is not peaceful towards Kafirs and, since I am and will remain a Kafir, this is what is important to me. You could say that I have a kafir-centric view of Islam since this is all that is important to me about Islam– how Muslims or Islam TREATS me and those I love and those I don’t love but who I still believe deserve to live freely.

In Judeo-christian, or western culture, morality means enhancing life. Life is the most important thing– that is, everythign that tends to promote or enhance life is considered good or MORAL, while anything that tends to inhibit or impede life is considered bad or immoral. (Yes, we sometimes disagree on what constitutes life, but it is still considered the most important thing).

Morality in Islam means that Islam is the most important thing. That is, everything that tends to promote, enhance, or further ISLAM is considered good or Moral,while anything that tends to inhibit or impede life is considered bad or immoral.

What a difference. Furthermore, ISlam is the ONLY political system that advocates dual ethics. That is, it is permissible to treat non-Muslims completely differently than other Muslims. Only other Muslims are deserving of fairness or just treatment. Also, it is the only political system that advocates Taquiyya– lying to further Islam– whenever desired. No other religion or political system is okay with this morally except for Islam.

Well, thanks for reading. Gotta go for now.

You have mentioned many issues here together, which would require quite lengthy responses individually. I’d recommend you make use of other good sites, such as http://www.readingislam.com or another I saw recently: http://www.rasoulallah.net/fl_list_en.asp?lang=ar&folder_id=29&parent_id=29

I would briefly remark that choosing a religion should be based on its claims to truth, focusing mainly on matters of doctrine, rather than assessing it in a merely political way or according to the societal fashions of the day. You’ve clarified you’re not gay, but just suppose that you were: would you seek a religion (or non-religious system) just because it allows you to live according to your desires? Many people do, but for me that is the antithesis of sincerity towards God.

The thing is, Muhammed advocated and encouraged and even ordered murder, enslavement, dhimmitude, beheadings, stonings, cutting off the limbs of thieves (no matter if they’re hungry and even 8 years old). He also advocated marriage with 6 year olds, consummation at 9 years old and polygamy.

Why would you expect anyone who follows the path of Muhammed to behave any differently than those who condemn homosexuality. Muhammed was kind to Muslims. As a Muslim, you probably view Islam in this way. But, I’m a kafir. And, I have a kafir-centric view. In my case, he advocated war (dar al Harb) until the whole world submits to Islam (dar al Islam) or lives in dhimmitude under Islamic rule, sharia.

So, I don’t understand why you’d stay Muslim. I have the same problem, by the way, with Catholics who disagree with everything the pope says, all the Catholic history yet still want to be Catholic. They’re just not. The doctrine says one thing and they want some modified version of it. . . picking and choosing.

You seem to be the same way. Why would you want to follow a man who advocated all this death, destruction, rape, enslavement, pedophilia, etc.? In Islam, Muhammed is considered the ideal, but in the Western world– to those who understand the entire Islamic doctrine– he’s the antithesis of all that the West considers good. We are a live and let live society. He advocated a strictly adherent version of Islam and all the jihad that goes on today is directly due to his own orders.

I just don’t understand the value of remaining in a religion that forbids homosexuality under the threat of death. I know homosexuality is also considered wrong in religious Judaism and Christianity, but you don’t have to fear for your life in judeo=christian societies! The absolute worst thing that MAY happen is that you might be shunned, but even that is doubtful these days. You’re most likely accepted and our culture promotes acceptance.

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2006/11/30/gay-muslims-clash-with-tatchell.html